any TSA advice?

[punaticbychoice]

John Boehner goes thru w/o any checks.
So do the rest of the pols, so far as I know.
Hmmm.

[AlohaSteven]

Support rational and effective security oversight and an end to this disgraceful farce which is the TSA.

That's the problem. For all the verbiage describing "outraged" thoughts and feelings, here's what it comes down to: a very blah, generic demand for something better, hardly even a talking point.

You, and many other "outraged" people have zero Plan B. How can it be possible to make access to aircraft safe for the public without some kind of search? Even if we all got naked, remember those body cavity bombs! This is a hard problem folks!

Yes, the Israeli behavioral scrutiny has been suggested, but the counter argument has been that it doesn't scale to the size of U.S. air traffic. Myself, I think they get so many false positives that they can easily catch bad guys. Probably, in the end, using the same intrusive searches that we are complaining about now. And do you see TSA employees becoming such observational experts?

So, if you're going to complain, at least let us know of your realistic alternative first.


Interesting, peteradams. How can you somehow know with certainty, as you assert, that I (and many others) have zero Plan B? Unlike some, apparently, I do not have clairvoyant abilities which allow me to know the minds of others without so much as even asking. A very useful superpower this would be; wish I had it.

What is your investment and angle on this, I wonder? Are you yourself a TSA employee or a family member of one such? The language in your critique of my comments is articulate yet seems shaming, the sort of comments which are used to kill any further dialogue rather than genuinely inviting a spirited and rigorous discussion.

If people need to provide a “realistic alternative first” as a precondition before they dare complain, then that does rather cut down on the size of the complaint box, I’d think. How convenient for those benefiting from the status quo. My “very blah, generic demand for something better, hardly even a talking point” is indeed that which could be expected from the average American citizen being taxed to pay for the TSA and whose civil liberties are being marginalized by the policies and personnel of that inept agency run amok, since most Americans are not security systems experts. I am certainly not. Yet, I hope most American citizens are also not undiscerning and timid enough to accept cynically Orwellian arguments.

In point of fact you are mistaken, peteradams, based on evidence: I do have realistic alternatives (as I will list here in a moment; ...if memory serves correctly then I may have even mentioned some of these suggestions before on Punaweb over the last several years). A couple of these ideas occurred to me independently but I have since seen them advanced elsewhere, while most other strategies I support as effective alternatives to current TSA ineptitude have originated from others far more qualified than myself to develop and put forward such plans. My main qualification to comment on all this is simply having traveled quite frequently both domestically and internationally since 11SEP2001 (including on 11SEP2002, 11SEP2003, 11SEP2004, and so on- for several years I made a point of flying on 11SEP simply because not flying on that date --when many others stayed home for fear of repeat attacks-- struck me as cowardly and collaborating with the intent of the terrorists). So, I have unfortunately had significant experience interacting with the TSA, provoking me to think about all this quite a bit while enduring “security theater” performances during travel. I also have the benefit of longstanding friendships with two commercial airline pilots, one professional air steward, one federal air marshal, and the owner of a multi-state travel agency who is also a consultant for a large commercial airline. Another person who is not exactly a friend (a family member with whom I am not very close, yet who is always responsive if an issue comes up) is an airport computer security systems specialist. These people have been very generous in responding to my questions over the years, giving frank feedback on various ideas. For the most part they agree with me, btw, regarding TSA ineffectiveness. The TSA spectacle is largely security theater: a big display to convey an illusion of control.

You ask “How can it be possible to make access to aircraft safe for the public without some kind of search?” It cannot, of course, and nobody ever suggested it could. The question itself misdirects; that which should more usefully be asked instead is “How can air travel be made safer for the public?” The exploration of this question can and does provide realistic alternatives to the TSA sham.

Before itemizing nuts and bolts, let us not forget to open our view widely and consider the big picture regarding how we got into this mess in the first place. How did America shift from being the most highly regarded if not revered nation in the world, to being attacked on 11SEP2001, and then finally to this unenviable place where we find ourselves today? That discussion will take awhile and probably never end, yet unless we engage in it, figure out some of the larger elements, and discern how they are best addressed then we can make airports into fortresses and America into a police state and there will still be no reasonable assurance of safety (even if Americans are willing to accept a much-demeaned quality of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness under such a grim regime). In a world where there are staggeringly inhumane inequities and vast disparities in quality of life there will never be peace, let alone safety. I contend, based on evidence, these inequities and disparities can be successfully addressed; there is no genuinely limiting long-term shortage of know-how, funding, materiale, and so on. There is, unfortunately, a critical shortage of vision, will, and intelligent leadership. Lest I be pilloried for complaining without first offering a realistic alternative, here is a good start toward such: http://www.truemajority.org/oreos/

That said, let’s examine how best to place a band-aide over gangrene, since this is apparently a precondition to complaining about the TSA.

Reinforce cockpit doors, expand pilot screening, and acknowledge that American passengers will never allow a plane to be commandeered by terrorists no matter what the cost (...and that even if the terrorists did somehow manage to gain control despite all this, the US Airforce would down the jet pronto).
This has all been done, already, and makes a huge difference. Such a huge difference, in fact, that airplanes are no longer viable targets for terrorists to take over and turn into guided missiles inside the USA. There are dozens of other, weaker, links if a hostile entity wishes to attack America in a way which does real and lasting damage. Devoting attention and resources to the TSA (note I am saying “TSA” and not “airport security” -they are two very different things) diverts manpower and money away from the soft spots where our nation and people are far more seriously vulnerable. What sort of patriot advocates spending billions on potentially unsafe and demonstrably ineffective backscatter radiation machines when there are many other dangerously vulnerable areas (food production, water supply, undetected dirty bombs in shipping containers targeting major port cities, et cetera) which could be strengthened instead? Please research this question in combination with keywords “Chertoff scanners” -Chertoff is a creature who, in my opinion, is no patriot.

Air marshals on every flight.
Instead of funding gangs of inept yet conspicuous TSA uniforms swarming ineffectively around the airport like ants on roadkill, use a fraction of the TSA cost to place a couple of highly trained and armed professional undercover air marshals on every flight.

Prescreen those frequent fliers who volunteer for deep background checks.
Like many others, my fingerprints and history have been scrutinized by the FBI and are on file in the national database, I am licensed to work in the public trust, yet I cannot be trusted to not try to take over a fortified aircraft in flight with nail clippers and a bottle of Snapple? Come on. This is absurd. People who fly frequently and who have demonstrated for decades they are not a significant risk simply lengthen the lines inspecting for genuine unknowns.

Use elements of the Israeli layered approach to airport security.
peteradams notes the “argument has been that it doesn't scale to the size of U.S. air traffic” -but this is mistaken. El Al provides this security at 48 locations around the world and there is no reason this approach which demonstrably works will not scale up even further. Keep some of the metal detectors, sniffer-machines, bomb-sniffing dogs (more of those dogs could be useful, actually), and suchlike infrastructure which already exists and is proven to do no harm while providing some possible good, but add genuinely effective layers so the rest is not just largely empty theater. Lose the ridiculous and maddeningly counterproductive procedures wherein small children, nursing mothers, frail old grandmas, and so on are accosted. If El Al does not need to gate rape children and allows cups of coffee aboard while maintaining the best record on the planet for decade after decade despite Israel being ongoingly at war, then they are doing something right while TSA is just being brutishly stupid and wasting money.

I could go on, and will if you insist, but there is really no need. This would do it -or so my pilot, air marshal, air steward, aviation industry, and airport computer security system expert friends and family tell me. Makes sense to me. I’d add one more though:

Completely erase the TSA brand. It is tainted. Replace the failed and disgraced TSA brand with a “rational and effective security oversight“ which has a different name, look, behavior, and set of approaches. Replace any and all of those among the 60,000+ TSA payroll who do not make the cut for providing actual security instead of mere security theater, too.

This change will not happen by we the people sitting on our hands and keeping quiet, though. Billions of tax dollars are being squandered on sweetheart deals and lobbyists are busy spending big bucks to make sure venal politicians remain bought and loyal to their corporate backers. Taking action by contacting elected representatives --and making sure they are not reelected if they are unresponsive-- is essential or all the rest of this is just a waste of time and energy.


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Baby Hummingbird
http://wimp.com/babyhummingbird

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[Bullwinkle]

a trained dog will sniff out contraband / explosives faster and with less impact than a machine.

Drug dogs have sniffed out every arriving passenger on every ams originating flight I have been on.

Apparently Chertof didnt get any money from the dog breeders.

baby steps

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/art...nDOFmb0PdQ

edit -link

[LeeE]

This is from the Sydney Morning Herald. Also, it has been documented that TSA workers attending the "scannees" appear themselves to be getting x-ray exposures, every time. That's got to add up to some serious levels of exposure.

Pass...

Not that we are ever likely to see a replay here, but the bungling crotch bomber had no passport and was escorted onto the plane at Shipol, by a well dressed man who witness's claim, told the ticket taker that his wards lack of a passport was not important and that, "We do this all the time".

Back to Puna. Now, they are talking about expanding the use of these things inside our borders. Want to use public transportation? Line up Punatics.

There goes the neighborhood.**S**

"November 15, 2010

"Nude airport scanners 'may be dangerous': scientists claim

'Statistically someone is going to get skin cancer from these X-rays,' says Dr Michael Love. Photo: AFP

US scientists have warned that the full-body, graphic-image X-ray scanners being used to screen passengers and airline crews at airports around the country may be unsafe.

"They say the risk is minimal, but statistically someone is going to get skin cancer from these X-rays," Dr Michael Love, who runs an X-ray lab at the department of biophysics and biophysical chemistry at Johns Hopkins University school of medicine, told AFP on Friday."

[LeeE]

Bullwinkle,

Yes, exactly. Must be great to help pass laws that bring hundreds of millions to your own company. At least he's well named.**S**

[Bullwinkle]

Budget[13] $ Millions Share
Aviation Security 4,809 71%
Federal Air Marshals 767 11%
Transportation Security Support & Intelligence 524 8%
Aviation Security Capital Fund 250 4%
Checkpoint Screening Security Fund 250 4%
Transportation Threat Assessment & Credentialing 164 2%
Surface Transportation Security 47 1%
Total 6,814 100%

the budget interesting - 4% goes to checkpoint funds.....

[peteadams]

quote:

---

How can you somehow know with certainty, as you assert, that I (and many others) have zero Plan B?

---

My single reason is simply because you didn't mention one. Few people do. My focus is on what we need to do to get on an airplane and fly safely these days.

quote:

---

What is your investment and angle on this, I wonder? Are you yourself a TSA employee or a family member of one such?

---

A little suspicious are we? Maybe I do have a little different perspective. Our son is an airline pilot and we want zero chance of any danger from terrorists in the air. Just as running through scanners several times a day puts pilots in a different situation (extra radiation beyond the high altitude gamma rays) than the traveling public, being on so many flights all the time makes the probability of running into an incident that much greater. And we want to move that probability as close to zero as possible.

I'm also bothered by the anger directed at the TSA grunts. Undoubtedly there are idiots, as everywhere, but my personal assumption is that they're doing their jobs, they are most likely decent human beings and my getting mad at them on a personal level is just inappropriate and wrong. But primarily I'm really tired of all the "outrage" directed at scanners and frisking when there is likely no feasible alternative (see next quote).

quote:

---

You ask “How can it be possible to make access to aircraft safe for the public without some kind of search?” It cannot, of course, and nobody ever suggested it could.

---

Uhm, that's what this big ol' discussion is about: the ugly reality of personal searches to make flying safer, even if you want to characterize it as making travel safer for the public. Fine, but "access to the aircraft" is still what flying is all about.

All the specifics you have mentioned such as reinforced doors (you missed pilots with guns), pre-checks for fast lane access and air marshals are already in place. Unless you have access to classified information, I'd be pretty sure you don't know whether air marshals are on every flight or much else about what procedures are in fact in place.

Look, however inept TSA is, however much we dislike it, and as you yourself stated, some kind of personal search is going to be required at least some of the time. If we refuse to search grannies guess what will become the favored technique to move explosives on to an airplane? We already know that women in burqas have been used to conceal explosives so why not an older woman? In a wheelchair? Looking oh so innocent? And what about all those nasty body cavities? The reality is, whether the TSA or some other alphabet soup is going to do it, we're going to be searched for the foreseeable future. Personally I would like to see the alleged low level of radiation from the scanners confirmed by independent tests. I just hope the TSA person on the other side of the screen is alert and not bored out of their mind. As for the nudity angle, frankly anyone who characterizes their genitals as "junk" probably has a few issues, in my opinion.

Fundamentally I think it's wretched that flying has been put in this position by terrorists willing to do anything to mess with us. Having flown many, many times since the late sixties on business and pleasure, I remember the good old days. But the best way to deal with these murderous people is to make we are even more careful and observant than they are. Improve the procedures, get the dogs, add the behavioral observations (do we know TSA isn't already doing that?), etc. However, these scanners and searches are the tools we have now and that's probably not going to change. So lose the "outrage" and focus on having a nice day. Please.

[Carey]

Hey Mella....
Break out those 60's clear plastic minis....
Just think if everyone traveled in plastic wrap...
OK, I am studying way too much...
but when I first saw this thread - a trench coat & clear plastic dress is what I thought of ...just like the kids clear backpacks..
No need for groping or scans...

From the paper today.... TSA employment has gone from 13 to 62,000 in a decade....
That is more security - job security!

[Bullwinkle]

the stated goal of the 911 perpetrators was to bring about financial collapse

Aviation was targeted to reduce travel and business to achieve same.

If one looks at our economy they perps are doing well with a little help from wall street and the banks

I for one will not be flying for leisure any longer - it just no fun anymore

The TSA has not done anything to change my mind - if anything with this latest bone head move - are playing right into the bad guys plans

Hawaii will be impacted greatly by reduced leisure travel

its time to wake up - even a right (pat down) has been morphed into a protest using a proven technique (see Goebles - from wikikipedia paragraph 5 applicable inmho " ) to save time and security costs -

In my opinion we have no other option because TSA has fallen down on the job and has been "herded" into its current situation by the same bad guys

denial is not a river in..... malfeasance never a defense

my last post on the topic

[Dennis]

Again I say, don't carry suspicious items with you, keep gifts unwrapped and don't wear anthing metal through the detectors and you should be fine. Like I said before, nobdy ever asks what caused the machines to sound an alarm. You only hear about how violated these people feel.

When we returned from our recent trip over, the agent in Honolulu wanted to look in my backpack. I asked him if there was anything in particular that he was looking for as I could pinpoint more quickly than him emptying the bag. He said there was an item that they wanted to recheck. After he was satisfied, he asked me if I needed help repacking everything. I told him that it was not a problem and that he had more pressing needs so I could take care of it myself. He said thanks and that was the end of it.

We travel to Europe twice each year. Security overseas is just as tough. Maybe not quite as thorough, but when you have soldiers carrying very big weapons, you tend to comply very quickly! []