Disturbing, racist post

[Guest]

DaVinci,

you are a master of words, bless you and may others have the the insight to see it.

The Lack

The Lack Toons

[missydog1]

The part of this discussion that addresses the overthrow of the Hawaiian monarchy has focused on the state of Hawaiian culture in the late 1700's. The overthrow occurred in 1893. What matters in terms of international law is the state of international law at the time of the overthrow, not a century before, and not centuries before when other nations were annexed and conquered.

International law evolves. Hawai'i had a legal constitution, recognized around the world as legitimate -- and in 1893 it was not considered righteous to grab control of a nation with which one had sworn treaties, and so forth.

While I'm sure that the film Princess Kaiulani has its flaws and historical inaccuracies, it's not a bad thing to watch to take the images of warriors brandishing clubs out of your heads. The heir to the Hawaiian throne had an impeccable education.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_Ka%27iulani

There was nothing fair and square or honest about what the sugar barons did. Greed and might prevailed over the values of culture and civilization, and what was done was illegal under the laws of that time.

Wherever the Hawaiians had originated, they had a valid government. There was a very definite legal system that governed succession, and it was not based on percentage of Hawaiian blood, but rather by line of descent and as laid out in the Hawaiian Constitution. Princess Kaiulani's father was Scottish, but she was still the heir to the throne after Liliu'okalani.

The coup stripped voting rights from those who were not landed aristocracy, and gave the vote to European and American non-citizens of the Kingdom of Hawai'i. Considering all that I've heard from this group about the Constitution and rights, it is interesting how people condone this because it happened to someone else. If your people had been disenfranchised like that in the time of your grandfather of great-grandfather, most of you would probably still be sore about it.

Also, it was not just the Native Hawaiians who lost the right to vote. It was all non-white ethnicities who were not fortunate enough to own land, which made the annexed Territory of Hawai'i a considerable step backwards in terms of suffrage -- not only from the Hawaiian Constitution but also relative to the American Constitution of that time.

To sum up, those who supported the Hawaiian Kingdom at the time of the overthrow, were not supporting some nostalgic reversion to the days where people didn't wear clothes and lived under the heavy-handed thumb of the Ali'i. They were supporting a Constitutional Monarchy that was trying to revise the Constitution after the Bayonet Constitution was forced on Kalakaua. While I am sure it was not a perfect government, what is? The point is that it was not a case of the Americans taking over because the Hawaiians were unable to step up to the standard of 20th century civilization.

At the age of 18, Kaiulani released these statements to the press:

quote:

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"Four years ago, at the request of Mr. Thurston, then a Hawaiian Cabinet Minister, I was sent away to England to be educated privately and fitted to the position which by the constitution of Hawaii I was to inherit. For all these years, I have patiently and in exile striven to fit myself for my return this year to my native country. I am now told that Mr. Thurston will be in Washington asking you to take away my flag and my throne. No one tells me even this officially. Have I done anything wrong that this wrong should be done to me and my people? I am coming to Washington to plead for my throne, my nation and my flag. Will not the great American people hear me?
(on arriving to the U.S. mainland)
"Seventy years ago Christian America sent over Christian men and women to give religion and civilization to Hawai#699;i. Today, three of the sons of those missionaries are at your capitol asking you to undo their father’s work. Who sent them? Who gave them the authority to break the Constitution which they swore they would uphold? Today, I, a poor weak girl with not one of my people with me and all these ‘Hawaiian’ statesmen against me, have strength to stand up for the rights of my people. Even now I can hear their wail in my heart and it gives me strength and courage and I am strong - strong in the faith of God, strong in the knowledge that I am right, strong in the strength of seventy million people who in this free land will hear my cry and will refuse to let their flag cover dishonor to mine!"

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Most likely, the Hawaiian nation can't be put back together again, but I certainly can't be proud of what was done.

[Guest]

A

[ericlp]

Most likely, the Hawaiian nation can't be put back together again, but I certainly can't be proud of what was done.

Hawaiian's got a bit more better treatment then the native Americans Indians. It really sucks tho, that we took away their religion, their way of life, etc...etc.. We really bread them off the face of the planet. There is no way in heck you could put it back to the way it once was.

Tho if the USA didn't do it, I'm sure some other country like Britain or Spain would have taken advantage of their people. Hawaii was doomed no matter what way you slice it.

If I could bring back one thing or FIX hawaii, it would be get rid of the white mans religion and restore the old hawaiian faith back to the way it was. That's a start.

It always kind of irked me to see a traditional Hawaiian house blessing and to bring in the white god in the middle of it just to please someone from the mainland. If you gonna do it, leave your white god back at home and pick up a hawiian tiki and learn a bit of hawaiian mythology and culture before. Have a little respect.

[ericlp]

quote:

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Originally posted by DaVinci

@Rob: What is so wrong about priming the pump of a discussion? Why is argument immediately condemned here?

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Uh ... I won't say what I really want to say, But, this is not your place to "moderate". If you don't like the rules you are free to leave anytime you want. I happen to agree 110% with Robs views on moderation. It's how I would moderate this place if I so choose to start a forum like this.

If you want to have trolls running around and seeing who can bait the next person fine. Start up your own site and see how it goes.

Wishing you lot's of luck. In the meantime respect the moderators wishes.

[] [8D]

[Bullwinkle]

"It always kind of irked me to see a traditional Hawaiian house blessing and to bring in the white god in the middle of it just to please someone from the mainland. If you gonna do it, leave your white god back at home and pick up a hawiian tiki and learn a bit of hawaiian mythology and culture before. Have a little respect."

Martha Beckwith (sp?) Hawaiian Mythology a good place to start - available at amazon, free download or the book store at the volcano observatory

(http://books.google.com/books?id=FyIEpx1aLXEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=beckwith+hawaiian+mythology&source=bl&ots=BCr-UONEC7&sig=_sAFE470noV1dnfea78Bwk0swyA&hl=en&ei=sQ0eTd76HJC-sQPbnOC4Ag&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&sqi=2&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false)

[kalama boy]

Hawaiideborah, "no jokes about minorities, period"......um, ever heard of Frank Delima? He is very funny and some would say his jokes about minorities promote understanding and bring people together.
How about Rap Reiplinger?

Or check out the song "Mr San Cho Lee"....that's funny to me.
Mr Kazu Tanaka get plenty......camera supplies

Come on people, "We are just a moments sunrise fading in the grass" (a 60s song)

[Bullwinkle]

in world war 2 - folks made lamp shades out of tats recovered from the victims, displayed in homes and admired by guests as unique artwork - too valuable to waste. The previous owners completely dehumanised is what institutionalized and promoted this behavior.

its about the level of insensitivity we assume to be "normal" as a society. Racial jokes the first step in relegating some one not like the "in group" as not having the same rights or values

add a little meth to the right wing mix and you may have the lamp makers back

[Guest]

I

[birdmove]

To the person in Florida who said I was wrong about Hawaii law regarding how far you are allowed to go to defend yourself, you don't know Hawaii. Shoot an unarmed robber in your home, and you are going away. it is incumbent on you to prove your life is in danger and chances are you won't be able to, especially if you shoot someone with deep roots here. Your macho attitude will disappear very quickly in prison."

So, you are telling me that, should a drug addicted meth addict smash in ones front door and attack them, the homeowner can't stop them from doing so with any means available? And in the next sentence you are telling me that, in the eyes of the law in Hawaii, a "local" pulls more weight than another person? What happened to getting at the truth? These are intersting concepts.

So, you expect a homeowner to enter in hand to hand combat with a stranger that invaded his home? Or run away and let the perpatrator take over the house? I think if someone smashes their way into a home, that the homeowners life,by definition, IS in danger.This person didn't destroy your front door to read you the bible, or to tell you how happy they are that you live in the neighborhood.

So if the dude has a baseball bat, I must ask him to wait, while I rummage through my home looking for a baseball bat? What if I'm a black belt in karatae? Is it okay to use my training? Or must I wake my wife up and ask her to put up her dukes? I'm 57 years old.And though I work out in a gym and lift weights, I have no intention of getting in a hand to hand fight with anyone-especially if they are half my age.

I love the Big Island, and the Puna area in particular. The people I have met have been wonderful people.I love going to the Makuu market and to Hilo (love that town too), and the beautiful Botanical Gardens (where we are members).I am sure that I will have no problems such as we are discussing here.Yet, having a theoretical discussion of a subject such as this can still be done with respect.

By the way, it's 14 degrees F here in Puyallup this morning!!

Jon in Puyallup, Wa.