This topic didn't start out being about the Native Hawaiian history, but the inability of mainlanders and transplants to "get" that history has been brought up and I hope it is OK to speak to it.
First of all, I do respect the traditional hunting rights and those that are codified in the Constitution and laws. Although I would hope that the right and desire to hunt would be balanced with a sense of the overall greater good -- and I do not know enough about the situation as it stands to do anything but try to learn.
I moved here in 2002, but my husband had first moved to Hawai'i in 1972 or so, and he had worked side by side with locals doing surveys for Land Court on Maui and doing carpentry on the Big Island. He was always much more interested in hanging out with locals than fellow haoles, so I would say he learned a lot and I had the benefit of a jump start from him.
Still, I did not understand how the annexation of Hawai'i could be any more reversible than other acts of aggression in history.
After I moved here, I became interested enough to read more about the illegality of what occurred under international law. I wouldn't consider myself fully versed in the subject, but I do believe that the United States government committed a greedy and wrongful and illegal act.
I see how the programs put in place to help Native Hawaiians are mismanaged and slow.
I am sympathetic and I do not say "get over it." Rather when I run across tourists who come off with the "this is America, get over it" entitlement spiel, I talk to them as best I can about why Hawai'i is a special case and why they should respect its ways. I do try, for no other reward than I believe wrong was done.
Now to put forward a counter point of view to this idea that malihini shouldn't have any say or opinion about how to go forward --
There are many Hawaiians who have moved to Las Vegas, for example. They have bought property, they can vote, they can help shape their new community. Would you have people say to them -- "hey, you're not from here, if you don't like it, go back to Hawai'i." Do you think they should be disenfranchised because their families didn't come to Nevada six generations ago?
We live in a mobile society where people are free to move around the globe, and I think people who would want respect of their rights when they emigrate should be prepared to extend the same to immigrants.
That said, I can't stand it that people arrive here and try to run things without learning anything about history, tradition, how things are done. My own approach is to take part in community associations that are led by kupuna of the island and to listen to what they have to teach me, and to put forward any ideas of my own tentatively.
Back to the deer and sheep controversy, again I do thank you who have opened up the discussion to its larger context of a conflict that has been ongoing for decades. I did NOT understand that when this topic began.
My question that I believe is still unanswered -- can DLNR act freely in the matter of the sheep, as it was sued and lost the lawsuit? Does the court order not control what they can and can't do at this point?
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freestate- you said "I don't understand how being here for generations affects the ecological concept the Axis Deer issue brings to light.
People are trying to change the argument to sheep, or make it a Native Hawaiian issue. Straw man arguments.
And to say that Hawaii's ecosystem isn't damaged from invasive species already is not living in reality. Ask a biologist working on the Big Island how healthy the island's ecosystem is. Just because parts look pretty doesn't make it a healthy ecosystem overall."
Exactly my point! These may seem like straw man arguments to you, but they are actually very similar to the topic of interest due to people with extreme beliefs such as you; you take the same approach to destroy anything you "feel" doesn't belong. What I am trying to say is that what you see as "damaged" is actually the result of generations of people living here, trying to get by, and leaving their mark. I think another name for that is culture. Historically, introducing animals such as sheep and pigs was a necessity for survival. I have ancestors who subsisted purely on hunting animals and gathering on the big island, it was their livelihood. Today I still view these animals not only as a valuable food resource, but also as a tradition.
What makes you think that the right thing to do is to come here and kill off animals such as the sheep to try to restore the land to its natural state? So you see your argument is to restore the ecosystem to it's natural state at the expense of the resource of animals, as well as our culture. I do not agree with this. Does it even seem feasible to you to restore the Island to a 100% native ecosystem? I don't think so. That is what I mean when I say you are anti-Hawaii, you come here wanting to change everything back to how it was before people and animals where here, nothing but native plants and birds (you don't fit into this native picture either). For some reason you feel that this is the right thing to do, and people that have been living here for generations are wrong in wanting to keep a part of their culture because apparently they have already damaged the land too much.
I feel that there are generally 3 options in taking action towards these issues:
1) Do nothing and let the animals run wild
2) Encourage a balanced hybrid ecosystem between native and non-native animals by reducing animal numbers when needed (this can be achieved through no limit hunting seasons. One man single-handedly eradicated all of the goats off of niihau over the course of 2 years without modern technology, so don't tell me hunting is an ineffective control method)
3) Completely kill off everything non-native, and do nothing, allowing for even worse threats to fill the void
So you see this is how the sheep issue as well as the axis deer issue are linked, the government as well as yourself approaches both issues in the same way with option 3. I however support option 2, we shouldn't let any single native or non-native group dominate over the other but achieve a balance between both of them.
oink- I am glad you enjoyed the pics. It really is an eye opener when you are fed all of this information about the sheep killing off the mamane trees and their supposed inability to produce seeds now, but a short hike on the mountain will reveal literally hunreds of thousands of trees each producing seeds.
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KathyH- I am really glad to hear your input, you honestly seem to be the most open minded person on this forum and I applaud you for being eager to do research and trying to understand other points of view.
I have to stress that I was not trying to say if you are not Hawaiian then leave. But rather what you have said nailed it on the dot "I can't stand it that people arrive here and try to run things without learning anything about history, tradition, how things are done." I feel that this is how freestate is approaching these issues and I just want him/her to consider a locals point of view.
On to your question "can DLNR act freely in the matter of the sheep, as it was sued and lost the lawsuit? Does the court order not control what they can and can't do at this point?"
Legally DLNR doesn't have a say in the matter because they lost the lawsuit, so technically they have to kill off all of the sheep at their own expense (taxpayer dollars). Due to this a petition was started not long ago to call for new research on the matter, however there was a lack of support and the situation is only looking worse as there will be three more aerial hunts conducted over the next 2 months. This is much more frequently than ever before, and I am wondering where they are getting these funds in our current declining economy? I am not sure what we can do to save the sheep..
Here are some links to the previous petition and current efforts:
https://secure.peta.org/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=3581
http://www.bigislandvideonews.com/2011/0...eep-birds/
http://www.change.org/petitions/call-for...radication
Thanks, SHW!
I will take a look at the new info as I get time.
Thanks for clarifying your point of view about not telling people to leave. Part of my reply spoke to kipa and part to you, and you are of course different individuals.
I did look at the photos and saw a lot of seedpods. [  ]
It is too bad the situation can't be revisited, and I was dismayed to read that the official palila count may not be accurate due to weather conditions. I hate to see sides obfuscating the stats to make their position stronger.
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SHW-
You are putting words in my mouth.
My position is not some pipedream of reversing time to some Hawaii version of Eden "before the humans arrived".
It seems you have an idea of what those not privileged to have "generations" of history think about Hawaii and want to apply it to all. I'm not aware of any current movement to exterminate Hawaiian culture.
I don't even have an opinion on the sheep because I don't know enough about the issue.
I don't trust the information offered by Kipa and SHW because they have both shown attitudes that favor the rights of certain people over others. It would be nice to have objective information.
But the sheep are a separate problem. Adding a new invasive species is the issue.
My position on Hawaii ecology is basically:
-Don't make it worse
-Fix what you can
Neither of those beliefs includes placing the value of human life below those priorities. But that is a false choice. Its hard to imagine the existence of Hawaii's people depending on the influx of invasive species.
Hawaiians haven't historically hunted Axis Deer so the cultural aspect doesn't apply. I am not against a tradition of hunting and gathering if that is something a people want to celebrate. Axis Deer are not required for that tradition.
It isn't a "feeling" that the deer don't belong in this ecosystem.
For the record I wish a lot could be changed about Hawaii's history. I don't know any that look upon it as a shining example of US history or human behavior in general.
I know freestate as an extremely humanistic, intelligent, articulate and open-minded person. It is too bad you guys are knocking heads with him, really. Much better to have a meeting of the minds if you can.
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freestate-
You must be a lawyer, as you try to discredit myself as well as others in nearly every post. I didn't post on here to insult anyone or start a battle with them, and I am certainly not a Hawaiian extremist or someone who is placing a value on the lives or rights of others (not sure how you even derived that one from my earlier posts).
I understand that everyone has their own opinions and people can't always agree with each other, I just wanted to share some insight into the current sheep issue and that the axis deer issue will probably be approached in the same unorganized fashion by our government.
As I stated earlier:
"I feel that there are generally 3 options in taking action towards these issues:
1) Do nothing and let the animals run wild
2) Encourage a balanced hybrid ecosystem between native and non-native animals by reducing animal numbers when needed (this can be achieved through no limit hunting seasons. One man single-handedly eradicated all of the goats off of niihau over the course of 2 years without modern technology, so don't tell me hunting is an ineffective control method)
3) Completely kill off everything non-native, and do nothing, allowing for even worse threats to fill the void"
Of course there are intermediate options between those extremes that I have listed, however I feel that the 2nd would be the best when approaching these types of issues. Again, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
It just seems that you have a very strong sense of what is wrong and right for this issue, as well as what is allowed or does/doesn't belong here as you have stated multiple times. I am just wondering what gives you such a high authority? What makes you absolutely right in saying that the axis deer don't belong here? Don't say "because they weren't historically found here" because that is true for so many things found here that are not prosecuted so harshly as the four legged mammals are.
In the end what we say here probably won't matter anyway. The deer will spread, the government will spend millions and most likely fail, and we will be left with 8 foot high fences everywhere.
I really want to believe what KathyH has said when vouching for you but it just hasn't shown yet.
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froM todays trib:
"It drew support from the 130-plus member Hawaii Cattlemen's Council Inc., the Three Mountain Alliance managing 1 million acres of private and government lands, Parker Ranch, Kahua Ranch, the Lalamilo Farm Lots Association, The Nature Conservancy, the Coordinating Group on Alien Pest Species, and various individual conservationists."
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Not sure if SHW realizes, but the pictures of mamame are within the MKM area...above Saddle Road, SSE of the summit....above the Parker fences....(two of the pictures even have the fences...) so I will agree, the mamame in the management area do better...so the pictures do prove that management is needed....(sorry, I have spent a few years studying the vegetation up there, and could tell right away where you took the pictures...and the sheep skeletons have been there a while longer than this summer.... quite a while longer....)
How many of our forums hunters truly support hunting & have obtained hunting licenses...this state & esp. this island have so few that the national & international groups that rely on hunting license stats only have that this state has one of the lowest active hunting stats... I have heard all of the reasons for not getting a license...but then do not complain that you have no voice in the hunting issue.. that is YOUR CHOICE!
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Carey-
I am not sure you know your areas very well, some of the pictures including the sheep bones where taken in Kaohe GMA way on the other side of the mountain by ahumoa hill. And yes the sheep bones have been there longer than this summer, that is just when the photos where taken. That pit of bones is where they leave all of the carcasses after an eradication.
The other pictures were taken between Hawaiian homes land and the Ice age area within the Mauna Kea Forest reserve on the left side of the access road when heading to the summit at around a 9,000 foot elevation. It is definitely not in a fenced off management area, where you are talking about is on the right side of the access road when heading to the summit on the same side as Hale Pohaku right?
Here is a video of sheep present in the area where the photos of mamane seeds were taken: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1aG70i_UkB8
When you say MKM management area do you mean the entire mountain? Technically the entire mountain is a management area as they regularly conduct aerial eradications.
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