quote:
Originally posted by snorkle
By the way, what is this "Straw Man" thing you mention? Is it some sort of Wizard of oz metaphor?
You might also know it as an Aunt Sally? I don't believe for a moment you don't get it, but feel free to follow links to look it up. And yes, under link one, you'll find a pic of the Scarecrow of Oz.
http://grammar.about.com/od/rs/g/strawmanterm.htm
http://www.logicalfallacies.info/ambiguity/straw-man/
http://grammarist.com/rhetoric/straw-man-fallacy/
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman
And in any case you ought to refresh yourself on what a disreputable technique it is and stop doing it. [  ]
Kathy
Posts: 1,406
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Joined: Jun 2013
Jeez Kathy, Your 800 word explanation of the simple oath sure makes it clear.
But it basically comes down to two words; Knowingly, willingly.
Motive and other considerations cast reasonable doubt.
Tiffany's haters are in for another letdown.
Posts: 1,930
Threads: 71
Joined: Jun 2012
People don't hate TEH, but it was the sleaze involved with the roast, then the whole residence debacle. When somebody keeps changing their story, they are not trustworthy, either being deceptive or confused, neither one a good trait. During the campaign, she said she always lived in Hawaiian Acres, then during other interviews, she says the surf shop has always been her home. This video is pretty good, especially the hand gestures starting to go around in circles when even she knows her explanation is bogus.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfImFAdY1_8
"Mahalo nui Pele, 'ae noho ia moku 'aina" - kakahiaka oli
*Japanese tourist on bus through Pahoa, "Is this still America?*
quote:
Originally posted by snorkle
Jeez Kathy, Your 800 word explanation of the simple oath sure makes it clear.
It would if you read through it. quote:
But it basically comes down to two words; Knowingly, willingly.
Not true. Two adverbs, which only have meaning as they are applied to specific verbs in the sentence. They cannot stand alone and have any generalized meaning. That is why I broke down the syntax in my post. quote:
Motive and other considerations cast reasonable doubt.
Show me one specific citation that agrees with you relevant to this statute. What in the world does "other considerations" mean, and what shadow do they cast again?
Captain Wagner stated that motive was irrelevant to proving the case. Of course he is not the prosecutor, but it's something to chew on.
This investigation still matters to voters because Tiffany could easily regroup and run again in 2016. However, if she is convicted under this Title, she will be barred from ever holding public office in Hawai'i.
So it is a definitely a matter of interest to voters how it works out, and to those who are considering tossing a hat in the ring in two years.
I fully realize that the law is not always applied in the way I think it should be. However, that is no reason not to look at the law and facts in question. In fact, if the motivation of the police and prosecutor's office to uphold the law is in question (your argument not mine), all the more reason to look carefully at the case.
Kathy
Posts: 11,156
Threads: 758
Joined: Sep 2012
KathyH -
Only the prosecutor's office knows where this case is going, but if I had to guess I would say nowhere. It has nothing to do with the details of the law, affidavits, or any of that. Bear with me.
When I lived on Maui, I had to file a police report, in the middle of the afternoon on a Wednesday. The officer at MPD asked me to take a seat until someone could help me. After 20 minutes I went up to the window to see if he had an idea how long it might be. He swiveled his computer screen around so I could see it, and scrolled quickly through 3 or 4 pages of calls in progress. Not long enough to read any details, but long enough to see that they had a lot more important business to attend to before they got to me.
I shuddered to think what that screen must look like on a Friday or Saturday night.
The police sort through their mountain of paperwork, and send some of it on to the prosecutors office. At the prosecutors office they have to further whittle away at the pile, and pick out what they think they can win, and what is most likely to help protect the population at large.
How many voting prosecutions have you seen lately? How many in the last 10 or 20 years? It's not that Tiffany is the only person who has ever cast a problematic vote, it's because it's not that big a crime in the scheme of things. It may be important to you, but really, if you could see how many felonies and misdemeanors are committed on this island daily, Tiffany's voting fiasco is way, way down the list. Think about how full the jails would be if right now HPD locked up everyone on the island who is breaking the law by smoking pot at the moment. I'm not, but I'm betting if HPD cleared the streets, I could take a long, long walk outside before I'd meet another person on the road.
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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Threads: 1,033
Joined: May 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Obie
I would think that Rob's rule about fair play should kick in.
Tiffany is no longer a politician.She lost.She is not here to defend herself.
Actually Obie, Tiffany is a registered Punaweb member and can speak in her own defense here any time she wishes... as she has in the past.
Assume the best and ask questions.
Punaweb moderator
HOTPE,
I agree with everything you said about the number of cases the police must deal with, and the prosecutor's office. And I already said that I'm fully aware that not all cases that have merit go the course.
Although, I think Tiffany should want this to go forward if she is innocent of the allegations, because that way there would be a determination. If it simply doesn't move forward, that says nothing about the actual legal merit, as you basically just argued. It only says that it didn't claw its way up the priority list, as a non-violent crime and one where there wasn't a huge amount of money involved.
So we'll see. That has always been my perspective. When certain people say it is dead or not a real investigation, then I will disagree, but I don't try to predict the future on the outcome. I'm fairly cynical, but would like to be proved wrong.
That said, I believe there are certain offenses that should be prosecuted once in a while, because without any prosecution, there is no fear or concern keeping people in check from doing whatever they want.
The only reason that Tiffany came under scrutiny for this was that when she did run for office, her home in Hilo was raised as an issue. Pulling records due to that revealed a surprising history. None of the history was pretty.
Tiffany's case attracts interest in part because of the heavy-handed way she has gone after minor lapses in etiquette or ethics with both elected and appointed County officials. She herself set the standard for putting people under a microscope and filing complaints. Did she not file an ethics complaint against a County employee for not being sufficiently nice and available to her? Did she not berate Greggor Ilagan for missing a meeting with her group?
At the same time, she had these issues of her own that wouldn't stand up to scrutiny, and yet she decided to run for public office. She switched her voter reg back and she dropped her improper exemption, generally tried to clean up her act shortly before filing, and she thought that was good enough, but it wasn't.
Major hubris. So here she is, and maybe she will be indicted and maybe not, but I think it's clear enough that she perjured herself. And guarantee you if Greggor had allegedly done what she has allegedly done, she would have expose after expose running on him in her blog, or on any other Big Island politician that she does not like who strayed from the straight and narrow. She would be the one pushing the police and Mitch Roth to follow though.
PS. The detective on her case is very busy, but he's a white collar crime division detective and so putting him on this is not taking away from violent crime enforcement, or traffic enforcement, or property crimes like theft.
Kathy
Posts: 5,002
Threads: 84
Joined: Feb 2009
Why would Tiffany post here at this point ?
This forum is about Puna politics.She is no longer a politician.
I don't agree with the things she has done and said !
I wouldn't have voted for her !!
At this point there are a number of posters here who have a personal agenda with Tiffany and keep attacking her.
You are like a mob of schoolyard bullies.
Posts: 5,002
Threads: 84
Joined: Feb 2009
quote:
Originally posted by KathyH
HOTPE,
I agree with everything you said about the number of cases the police must deal with, and the prosecutor's office. And I already said that I'm fully aware that not all cases that have merit go the course.
Although, I think Tiffany should want this to go forward if she is innocent of the allegations, because that way there would be a determination. If it simply doesn't move forward, that says nothing about the actual legal merit, as you basically just argued. It only says that it didn't claw its way up the priority list, as a non-violent crime and one where there wasn't a huge amount of money involved.
So we'll see. That has always been my perspective. When certain people say it is dead or not a real investigation, then I will disagree, but I don't try to predict the future on the outcome. I'm fairly cynical, but would like to be proved wrong.
That said, I believe there are certain offenses that should be prosecuted once in a while, because without any prosecution, there is no fear or concern keeping people in check from doing whatever they want.
The only reason that Tiffany came under scrutiny for this was that when she did run for office, her home in Hilo was raised as an issue. Pulling records due to that revealed a surprising history. None of the history was pretty.
Tiffany's case attracts interest in part because of the heavy-handed way she has gone after minor lapses in etiquette or ethics with both elected and appointed County officials. She herself set the standard for putting people under a microscope and filing complaints. Did she not file an ethics complaint against a County employee for not being sufficiently nice and available to her? Did she not berate Greggor Ilagan for missing a meeting with her group?
At the same time, she had these issues of her own that wouldn't stand up to scrutiny, and yet she decided to run for public office. She switched her voter reg back and she dropped her improper exemption, generally tried to clean up her act shortly before filing, and she thought that was good enough, but it wasn't.
Major hubris. So here she is, and maybe she will be indicted and maybe not, but I think it's clear enough that she perjured herself. And guarantee you if Greggor had allegedly done what she has allegedly done, she would have expose after expose running on him in her blog, or on any other Big Island politician that she does not like who strayed from the straight and narrow. She would be the one pushing the police and Mitch Roth to follow though.
PS. The detective on her case is very busy, but he's a white collar crime division detective and so putting him on this is not taking away from violent crime enforcement, or traffic enforcement, or property crimes like theft.
Kathy
I rest my case !!!
Posts: 11,156
Threads: 758
Joined: Sep 2012
Here's an article from 2012, five people voted twice in that Big Island election:
http://bigislandnow.com/2012/09/11/polic...ter-fraud/
Not sure of the outcome, but I've never heard any follow up.
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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