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quote:
Originally posted by gypsy69
Opihikao, mahalo for your passion and concerns. You speak the truth about yours and your ohanas experience living as a neighbor to geothermal. Yet others including some of my ohana have felt different effects caused by geothermal, some still lasting. Maybe some are more sensitive maybe some have been exposed differently.
The state and county planned to explore or experiment with the idea of geothermal and residential living on an active rift zone. Both are still experiments if you ask me but both should not be over the top of the other. Geothermal waste or releases should not be going over neighborhoods of keiki and catchment tanks. Homes should also not be built up against industrial drilling operations.
When we bought here in 99 we had no idea geothermal was going to grow and need to have continuous operations, or would be here Forever. Had no idea our home values or children's health could or would be impacted or influenced so greatly. Personally I would like to see more geothermal also just not ran or operated the same way this plant has been operating. This plant is like the haunted house at the end of some dark and deserted street. JMO.
Also just my opinion but they should close this current plant, convert it to a visitors center and museum. Move the plant or open a new one up above brysons cinders, maybe a mile or two above so to not affect residents, to be closer to the source, and to be up wind from most. Why did geothermal not by out all of leilani back in the 60's or 70's to avoid such a mess?
Why did the county and state not protect or form the proper health and environmental studies during the duration of the experimental drilling? Why don't we have an inter-island ferry since their are no facts to prove its dangerous or impacting anything?
gypsy69, it's all I got (our ohana experiences, extended ohana included...[  ]). To be frank, it has been stated to me by a revered Kupuna, the perfect place for geothermal was at Wao Kele o Puna. (Ducking. Don't throw tomatoes!) In fact, not one kanaka maoli has been stopped from "practicing" our culture anywhere since the PDF lawsuit eons ago.
Now, the most interesting (for me) current issue with health assesments and studies will be the "Hawaiian" study. Let's see just how many kanaka maoli will 1) participate, 2) be sick, or 3) become a Plaintiff.
Again, gypsy69, all we can do is strive for what is right, especially in your case, for your family. I believe what you say about your health to be true, for the record. What the health problems are caused by leaves room for medical evaluation by the "experts" ( unbiased experts).
Be well all. We'll get through all of this. Together.
JMO.
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gypsy69 - Why do you keep insisting that the geothermal plant has contributed to your illnesses when you are living on the East Rift Zone of this volcano, which sends all kinds of gasses out by the hundreds of tons, 24x7x365, year after year? You even moved to Leilani after the plant had been in operation for years? (I assume when you say you live in upper Leilani, that you live west of Moku, of which, the closest end is at least 1.6 miles from the center of the plant)
Geothermal didn't buyout all of Leilani because there is and was, simply no need to.
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Ok, to respond to the ad hominem tactic again. My background is in Biochemistry and Molecular Biology and I did my time in industry working on cancer therapies, both biologic and small molecule. This education and experience makes me a scientist although it does not make me, or anyone else, more or less right on this or any other topic.
Science is not about who is saying something but what is being said. The methods, findings, and conclusions of a study are the focus when doing scientific review. To straw man, call names, and sling insults is about as far from common standards as we can get, even if a scientist makes a mistake, which it does not appear that I have done.
geochem - are you saying that they were supposed to equip everyone in the study with personal H2S monitors for thirty years?
Nope - Bates noted "The third area to consider is information bias, particularly with estimates of H2S exposure levels... . Also, we made assumptions about the relative amounts of time people spent both at home and at work." Part of what makes this study strong is that these possible limitations are accounted for and their impact considered.
Can you explain where you are getting the 30 year number from? The study ran from 2008-2010 and participants had to be a resident in Rotorua for at least 3 years.
geochem - you choose to use the earlier, less robust study because it backs your prejudice and ignore the better study that was published more recently. You use Kilburn's study to trot out neurological effects with Kilburn being a professional expert witness in litigation. And choose to ignore the companion to the Bates study done by Reed that thoroughly discredits Kilburn's nonsense.
How am I ignoring the better study focused on H2S and asthma (2013) when my post is cut and pasted from it alone? Bates mentioned the other studies not me: "there are other potential health outcomes from hydrogen sulfide exposure, including possible neurologic and neuropsychologic effects (Kilburn et al., 2010) and effects on the eye, particularly cataract (Bates et al., 2002). These also need to be investigated."
I was not planning on discussing Kilburn, but we can if you like. We should also look at Reed, but trying to combine all of them into a single post is a lot to discuss adequately, if that is indeed the goal here.
Please help me understand the jump from Bates focused and well supported claim that "No evidence was found for an association of H2S with increased asthma risk."
to your "The health claims regarding H2S exposure in the community are a fraud."
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Originally posted by leilanidude
gypsy69 - Why do you keep insisting that the geothermal plant has contributed to your illnesses when you are living on the East Rift Zone of this volcano, which sends all kinds of gasses out by the hundreds of tons, 24x7x365, year after year?
Out of curiosity, what makes you believe that the ERZ gasses cause illness at all?
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My 2 cents:
Health studies have been conducted and found no adverse risk.
These studies are very expensive and the amount of money we have access to is limited.
No matter how many studies are conducted you will never be able to please everyone.
What is more important to Puna - to you - to me - to us?
Endless health studies and EIS ? Or something tangible that you can touch? Like a park to take your children to or a library.
Anyways, Aloha mai kakou
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Opihikao,
" It is probably more frustrating to a scientist (than a layperson like myself) to see BS continue. Scientists call BS what it is. Immediately, if not sooner. Keeps facts in check, and BS out."
Although I think you're correct in saying scientists tend to call BS very quickly, in general they are not trained to detect trickery. A lot of science is based on trust in that research papers are genuine and not fraudulent.
I don't know if you've heard of James Randi, but he's a magician who has fooled scientists in the past just to prove that point, but is also a skeptic and understands that in some cases it takes a thief to catch a thief. He's a guy I have much respect for.
There is also Carl Sagan's baloney detection kit. I'm definitely a subscriber to this, but you don't need to be a scientist to use it. There's a nice summary here:
http://www.brainpickings.org/2014/01/03/...arl-sagan/
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Originally posted by TomK
Does it include his qualifications on geothermal energy?
Sorry, ironyak, both you and pahoated have destroyed my bull**** meter tonight. It was a complicated model that detected double standards, hypocrisy, complete nonsense and fruitcakes. It went off the scale earlier this evening.
Evening Tom. Sorry to hear your BS meter broke. I'll gladly comp for it if you can help me understand what I did to contribute to its demise. As it's after the holidays, can even restock it with "fruitcakes" to fling when the BS is pointed out.
What research paper are you saying may be trickery? Sagan's kit is of course a spot-on description of good scientific analysis free from logical fallacies. I have to gently ask, do you feel you followed it in your post quoted above?
Do you consider it hypocritical that I didn't object to Punatic007 about talking about Harry Kim? I wasn't on at the time and he brought him up as a passing statement not a new question to consider. Harry Kim was not invoked as a health study expert by anyone as best I know so it appears off topic but will add my 2 cents anyhow.
As you probably know, Harry Kim was Head of Civil Defense from 1976 to 2000 during which his job included developing a risk assessment and emergency response plan for geothermal. He was directly involved during all major local geothermal events from HGP-A, SOH, 1991 blow-outs and other releases, Wao Kele o Puna, and amending of PGV's GRP-2. As Mayor from 2000-2008, his involvement with geothermal included PGV's expansion, Act 97, and much more.
If he is not qualified to speak about geothermal development then who would be?
For my part, I take Mr Kim at his repeated invite to challenge anything he has said. From my research on technical matters, his statements are always quite accurate and well informed. His willingness to mea culpa regarding mistakes made is refreshing and commendable, and he tirelessly advocates for county rule and adequate protections for residents and environment. Is he perfect? No of course not, but I appreciate his efforts and willingness to share his experiences and insights. IMHO
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"If he is not qualified to speak about geothermal development then who would be?"
Didn't say he couldn't speak about geothermal, I want to know what expertise he has on geothermal energy production in order to make an intelligent assessment of his opinions. He's a manager and a politician, neither of which convince me to believe what he says about geothermal unless you can demonstrate his expertise in that area.
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You want me to demonstrate Harry Kim's expertise regarding geothermal energy production and from that you can decide whether or not to believe what he says about anything geothermal (including history, legislation, technology, emergency response, etc)?
He was a manager and politician so why believe him right? (ad hominem - poisoning the well)
http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index...g-the-well
Interesting dilemma here: To judge any evidence you'd have to be knowledgeable about geothermal energy production, otherwise how could tell if it demonstrated expertise or not? But if you are knowledgeable, then why do you need me to demonstrate anything at all, you should already know.
So either:
1) Apply your knowledge of geothermal energy production to the dozens of hours of Harry Kim speaking about geothermal
OR
2) Get knowledgeable about geothermal energy production and goto 1)
And while all this has nothing to do with the discussion of Geothermal Health Studies, it would be interesting to hear whatever conclusions you come to regarding Harry Kim's authority on geothermal, so we can judge the merits of making an Appeal to Authority.
http://www.logicallyfallacious.com/index...-authority
(Maybe Sagan's kit got left somewhere... 
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You seem to be quite confused, ironyak. I was asking about Kim's qualifications regarding geothermal. It's a simple request which would allow me to weigh his opinions. Unfortunately, it's no surprise to me that answering the question directly is being avoided by both punatic007 and yourself who have both used him as an appeal to authority.
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