Geothermal - Health Assessments & Studies

[ironyak]

Morning TomK - I very much appreciate what you've said here and how you've said it. This topic is clearly very polarizing with strong opinions based on too many years of arguing and assuming the worst of everyone IMHO. For most of that time, I admit I felt it was a NIMBY issue, until having heard more directly from new friends in the area. This lead me to dig very deep in my best attempt to understand.

As I've said elsewhere, I look at this as a discussion, not a debate. The tone and perspective I'm trying to maintain is one of open inquiry, not of scoring points through misinformation, rhetorical tactics, or personal attacks. However this is punaweb so the one-liners, fallacious retorts, and snark tend to flow freely (and can be quite entertaining and infectious at times

I'm sorry if it sounded like I singled you out for asking about Harry Kim; I missed the opportunity earlier to keep things more on the rails. Your question is worth considering and looking into for your own satisfaction. Hopefully no offense taken, as there is none taken on my side. This isn't my first rodeo.

You brought up Carl Sagan who, along with his contemporary Neil deGrasse Tyson, may offer an example of how to best communicate about science: with clarity, sincerity, and humility that carries the message to a wide audience.

I am going to step back for a bit on this, but I do look forward to more conversation on this topic with whomever might be interested.

Hopefully the view is nice if you're working tonight. I'll have to settle for a new Cosmos (which isn't too bad at all
Cheers for now!

[ironyak]

At the risk of geothermal overload, I am going to strap on the spurs and bump this topic. Hopefully, there are several science-minded folks who might have an interest. (Looks like we lost a useful addition from uphill along the way - hopefully they will rejoin us

http://hawaiitribune-herald.com/news/loc...alth-study
The RFP for the 3 year $750K health study has started and will be open until May 5th.

While the kids and I are fans of a nice park, a robust health study is a more proper use of the Geothermal Asset Fund, and long overdue IMO. If anyone wants to discuss any of the previous efforts, I am very open to that.

The work of Bates and others in Rotorua, NZ offer some insights into a well designed study of H2S, including detailed mapping of the area for exposure, and a clear separation of health effects such as asthma from other ailments.

The study here will have the benefit of not simply being an epidemiological retrospective on H2S, but an ongoing live study looking at several possible impacts to health from geothermal including H2S, SO2, heavy metals, etc.

The CDC's ATSDR toxicological profile for H2S is being updated and utilizes many of these studies to suggest new lower recommended limits of exposure to H2S.
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp114.pdf (317pg 6.2meg)
(Note, I don't expect anyone else to actually read the whole thing - just noting where I went to as a starting point in understanding these studies)

Of note, the EPA has a lifetime RfC exposure limit of 0.7 ppb. This very conservative level is most likely exceeded by living in certain active areas of the east rift zone, indicating the possibility for health issues. The higher levels from unabated releases by PGV are not without concern as well. One challenge for this health study will be to separate the source and quantify the exposures involved with each.

I have been accused of being biased - after several hundred pages of reading on this topic, I am biased against exposure to H2S regardless if the source is natural venting or man-made operations such as PGV. As PGV should have control of their operations, they can eliminate themselves as a source of possible exposure and concern should they choose.

geochem - my questions to you still stand. Explain how you jump from Bates focused and well supported claim that "No evidence was found for an association of H2S with increased asthma risk." to your "The
health claims regarding H2S exposure in the community are a fraud."

You asked to discuss the health studies - if you actually have any interest in discussing the science here is your chance.

[Obie]

Ironyak

Why not use the search function here and at Bigislandchronicle.

The subject has been debated to death.

You have your opinions and the rest of us have ours.You are not going to change my opinion and I am not going to change yours.

[kalakoa]

Studies are complete waste of time and money simply because they will not mollify the NIMBYs and hypochondriacs.

Unless, of course, the study concludes that nobody should live within X miles radius of the plant, at which point the relocation lawsuits get really expensive.

Anything less is clearly "flawed" and/or "biased".

[ironyak]

Originally posted by Obie
Ironyak, Why not use the search function here and at Bigislandchronicle. The subject has been debated to death.
You have your opinions and the rest of us have ours. You are not going to change my opinion and I am not going to change yours.

The interwebs allow for searching - surely you can't be serious?

Here's a useful search tip for anyone following along. When using Google, include "site:punaweb.org" with your terms to search just this site. It is much faster than the PW search function and links directly to the post of interest. Also works for BIC and many other sites.

I've seen you and the crew in action during these "debates" here and elsewhere. You are welcome to your opinion, no interest in changing it. However, repeatedly using the 1984 door-to-door survey or the 1997 ATSDR assessment as your supporting "health studies", clearly puts your opinion on shaky scientific ground and hopefully does not influence anyone's beliefs. You can start calling "nit-wits" like before or you could demonstrate you actually understand the documents you like to toss out as one-liners to justify your views.

This conversation was prompted by geochem's complaint that "the scientific papers posted earlier - are completely ignored." When someone takes them up in earnest, he resorts to name calling, strawmans, and misinformation. Given his role in promoting geothermal and the deference given to his opinion, his behavior is even more objectionable.

Hopefully he, and others, can demonstrate some actual scientific discourse on this topic.

[Obie]

Yawn !

[ironyak]

Or not... At least you managed to post something you didn't have to delete right away. That's a start?

[ironyak]

A couple quick points about the RFP for the 3 year health study.
Posted here - http://ge.tt/7ONRfqB2/v/0
or
http://spo3.hawaii.gov/notices/notices/rfp-3152
and request a copy.

Overall the study objectives are well outlined focusing on possible health effects from exposure to H2S, SO2, heavy metals, and noise from the PGV plant, but also considers the possible historical impact during the HGP-A era, the 1991 blow-out, and other upset events. Another focus of note is trying to understand how health impacts differ between Puna and other communities exposed to SO2, H2S, both, or neither.

A second focus is for future geothermal:
"A further objective is to collect background information on the medical conditions of residents to be archived as part of baseline data to be used for assessing future geothermal development."

This health study, along with the other studies, have a part to play in the expansion of geothermal. Hopefully the county takes the proper steps to ensure the independence and validity of this work and its findings.

Along with recent highlighting of geothermal mapping, it should be clear to everyone that there is increased emphasis on the expansion of geothermal energy, especially here in Puna.
http://hawaiitribune-herald.com/news/loc...iscussions

[lavalava]

What about that guy who was unconscious for hours? Is he better now?

[Guest]

Why hasn't OHA offered to help fund a health study for lower puna residents over the years. For those who live close enough to Ormats geothermal plant to be effected? Very disappointing how OHA collects their millions in royalties from this power plant then invests millions back into more of it(hui), all while ignoring the nearby communities complaints. What does OHA stand for and what is their purpose? Don't they have more money than the state of Hawaii? Jmo here but shame shame OHA. Your secrets run deep, the hidden possibly illegal agenda's and truths will come out