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I think the protesters should be targeting the "Mars" fiasco instead of the TMT. It's bad science fiction VS real science.
***Still can't figure out how to spell 'car' correctly***
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ono ono says;
"For the record, I don't believe a culture that worships a particular spot of dirt should be equated with, or block the progress of, a culture exploring deep space. You can deceive yourself that they are the same, but they are not."
You're not helping the whole credibility thing, crazy man.
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quote:
Originally posted by TomK
Well, that didn't last very long, the ceremony is being disrupted by protesters.
Never mind all that Tom - the natives seem to get restless once a generation or so. We will be back to our regularly scheduled programming soon enough!
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quote:
Originally posted by snorkle
ono ono says;
"For the record, I don't believe a culture that worships a particular spot of dirt should be equated with, or block the progress of, a culture exploring deep space. You can deceive yourself that they are the same, but they are not."
You're not helping the whole credibility thing, crazy man.
Maybe not with you or "the kind", but with rational thinking people - Yes.
I hold the Oceans are sacred, so none of you can desecrate them by fishing in them, allowing their waters to touch your bodies, etc. That is my culture, and you better damn well "respect" it, or I'll throw a tantrum in front of the next ULCC or Container Ship that soils my Sacred Ocean by floating on them - Progress and the rest of humanity be damned. [:0]
Ono - So Fast - So Tasty!
Ono - So Fast - So Tasty!
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"I think it is paramount we address the issues of Hawaiian sovereignty and their land use rights before any further development anywhere goes on."
I look forward to seeing the same protestors turning up to stop any future roadworks or any houses from being built.
Can I still mow my yard?
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulW
"I think it is paramount we address the issues of Hawaiian sovereignty and their land use rights before any further development anywhere goes on."
I look forward to seeing the same protestors turning up to stop any future roadworks or any houses from being built.
Can I still mow my yard?
That issue was addressed in 1959 when the Hawaiian people voted overwhelmingly for statehood. The case, except with a few nutcases, is closed and sealed, and consigned to the vaults of history.
Feel free to mow your yard, and build houses etc. It's what civilized people do.
Ono - So Fast - So Tasty!
Ono - So Fast - So Tasty!
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"People are being stopped and questioned on a public road."
What? That is unbelievable! How does that work, do they physically block cars from getting through
and the police allows that?
Every once in a while we get a reminder that we're on the edge of the Third World here.
I associate thuggery like that with parts of South America.
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quote:
Originally posted by dakine
After reading that, I am curious to see your justification for regular observatory staff who, on their way up to the summit area, are told to stop, wind their windows down and are then interrogated about who they are and who they work for....
Thank you for the question Tom. My post, and my tactic of posting definitions of terms that are brought to mind by the behavior of participants here, is only to highlight that behavior as it applies to PW (which I find disgusting) not to suggest that we can compare such behavior here with that of others elsewhere. And, in no way am I condoning it anywhere.
The problem you bring up is a valid one and I am sorry that anyone is caught up in it. Knowing a number of people that work on the mountain daily I am aware of the discomfort and do not have a solution other than to suggest patience. I doubt if anyone is under any threat of physical harm and would suggest a certain amount of engaging with the people doing the questioning to build a familiarity and become known and hopefully just waved through in the future. Though in truth I am not there and do not know the exact nature of the dynamic so can not say with any certainty that any suggestion I make is going to work. To go further I can see MKSS approaching the protesters and working out some way to tag vehicles that should be allowed through because of their neutrality?
As to the legality or whether or not it's ethical or moral, or any other term we want to dance around that defines a right and wrong, I am sorry for the discomfort those that are being singled out are experiencing but I would suggest that it is an unfortunate byproduct of the process.
To further explain, and as I have stated before, I do not see the TMT as the root of the problem but rather an iconic 'cause' that has allowed the underlying frustrations of the Hawaiian people to crystalize into the current protest. As such it itself, and the innocent people that are caught up in the day to day activities of the protest, have (you might say) been swept up in the heat of the moment. That is unfortunate. BTW I have no problem with and in fact a lot of awe and respect and support for the astronomy industry here, but I am in complete support of the larger issues being aired even if it is at the expense of the TMT project moving forward at this time. In a word I am very sympathetic with your position but, and here's the rub, I think it is paramount we address the issues of Hawaiian sovereignty and their land use rights before any further development anywhere goes on.
The questions of sovereignty and land use rights has been on the table for longer than most have been alive. For years upon years this question has been given lip service but not squarely confronted and as such generations of Hawaiian people have been born and raised with a promise but not the actual right to or practice of self determination. This to me is a crime that is by far bigger than the temporary disruption of the people working on the mountain or the TMT project itself. As such I am sorry that the TMT project, and the astronomy community as a whole, has been caught up in it, but from my perspective that is the fault of the State of Hawaii, not the protesters, for not having the balls to deal with the rights of the Hawaiians in the first place.
And still Tom, I think for the people on PW to not be willing to discuss these issues without throwing mud and making ugly statements about people different than themselves is in itself a very sad commentary on our community, and one that brings a lot of shame to PW. So yes I think many here lack empathy, and are bigots, as per the actual definition of the terms.
Nice Strawman, but the mud is generally slung because those people are behaving badly by getting in the way of Progress, and the mud would be slung, even if they were all my identical twins, or tripletts..... Your shallow pathetic attempt to equate it with mere "difference" is an epic fail.
Ono - So Fast - So Tasty!
Ono - So Fast - So Tasty!
Dakine, thank you for the well written post. Couldn't agree more, like how you brought to light the bigger issues again. Plenty needs to be settled in courts still, also going to need time for some healing for Maunakea and her people who need to be heard and truly recognized. Shame on the state for pushing so hard for this TMT project now, almost like they know now or never!.
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I am glad that we have this opportunity to share our differing views on these hawai'i centric topics here on punaweb.
After seeing all of these varying viewpoints I am now leaning towards agreeing with the sentiment put forth by a few already:
These protesters seem focused on a 'shake down' they saw an opportunity to squeeze some 'heavy pockets' and are capitalizing on it.
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