While we are waiting for Tomk to recieve his much needed reponse from dakine, regarding the TmT excuses.
Maybe someone could help explain why there are different views or reported numbers to the actual amount of telescopes that are currently atop manna Kea?
I have heard that there are 12, 13, maybe even 22 telescopes are currently operating atop Mauna Kea. It may matter, because only a certain number of telescopes are aloud to operate atop Mauna Kea" I believe its 13". Which may have meant the decommissioning of some or many telescopes should have happened prior to the TMT's construction starting. Or at least before the TMT illegally parked their many heavy machine equipment atop Mauna Kea, jmo.
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quote:
Originally posted by gypsy69
While we are waiting for Tomk to recieve his much needed reponse from dakine, regarding the TmT excuses.
Maybe someone could help explain why there are different views or reported numbers to the actual amount of telescopes that are currently atop manna Kea?
I have heard that there are 12, 13, maybe even 22 telescopes are currently operating atop Mauna Kea. It may matter, because only a certain number of telescopes are aloud to operate atop Mauna Kea" I believe its 13". Which may have meant the decommissioning of some or many telescopes should have happened prior to the TMT's construction starting. Or at least before the TMT illegally parked their many heavy machine equipment atop Mauna Kea, jmo.
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quote:
Originally posted by gypsy69
Maybe someone could help explain why there are different views or reported numbers to the actual amount of telescopes that are currently atop manna Kea?
I have heard that there are 12, 13, maybe even 22 telescopes are currently operating atop Mauna Kea.
There are 13 on the mountain, but 12 facilities. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauna_Kea_Observatories
However the protectors have redefined the term "telescope" to mean anything related to a observatory. The Sub-Millimeter Array consists of 8 dishes ( https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/sma/), so they count that as 8 more telescopes instead of 1. This is some misunderstanding and exaggeration of how the telescopes work. It continues to be repeated for some reason. It's like saying, "Hey this Keck has 100 independent mirrors, so that's another 100 telescopes."
Here is the spot in the May 2015 "INSIGHTS ON PBS HAWAII - Should the Thirty Meter Telescope Be Built?" Interview where this discussion takes place:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMKgNSb1cE0&t=18m14s
In regards to decommissioning, you don't want construction and decommissioning happening at the same time. That's too much activity and disruption on the mountain. That's why there things are planned not to be in parallel. And what is illegal about having heavy equipment on the mountain?
Eric1600, mahalo to you for the link and discussion on this forum.
Astronomers don't count those other telescopes because of what reasoning, no base or independent pad?
Wouldn't the other non countable telescopes obstruct views or alter the original landscape?
Let me also repeat this question I overheard. should all woman with two breasts be counted as having only one big breast?
P.S. Nothing wrong with the tmt's leaking equipment being up there "if" the permits were validly obtained through the proper legal process "all" are asked to comply with.
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"P.S. Nothing wrong with the tmt's leaking equipment being up there "if" the permits were validly obtained through the proper legal process "all" are asked to comply with."
The equipment was there legally and it was the protesters that prevented TMT contractors to maintain them.
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quote:
Originally posted by gypsy69
Eric1600, mahalo to you for the link and discussion on this forum.
Astronomers don't count those other telescopes because of what reasoning, no base or independent pad?
Wouldn't the other non countable telescopes obstruct views or alter the original landscape?
Let me also repeat this question I overheard. should all woman with two breasts be counted as having only one big breast?
P.S. Nothing wrong with the tmt's leaking equipment being up there "if" the permits were validly obtained through the proper legal process "all" are asked to comply with.
They aren't counted as multiple telescopes because that's how antenna arrays are defined. If you didn't understand why the keck's optical mirror segments don't count as 72 telescopes, then I can't explain why the SMA's 8 dishes are 1 telescope. The protectors want to redefine things to make things feel worse than they are.
To continue your argument, women don't schedule 2 individual mammograms. They don't get "breasts" exams, they get a breast exam. It's semantics, sure, but the protectors are disingenuous in their arguments. This is how the world outside of the anti-TMT people define and count telescopes.
Just like your claim the TMT was illegal and has leaky equipment is misleading. It might feel good to say those things, but it is not sincere. The protectors were the ones breaking the laws. Just like I'm sure the protectors had no leaky 4x4s, didn't displace the natural rock formations, didn't bring non-native insects to the mountain and didn't break any laws, applied for permits to protest, applied for permits to build their structures, practiced a zero-waste policy by hauling all their sewage off the mountain themselves. You see two people can play this game all day and no progress will be made.
If you want to keep making emotional arguments then we aren't having a "discussion". If you want to have a genuine discussion, then simply make your point.
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The protectors were the ones breaking the laws.
No; the laws simply do not apply to these "protectors". Look no further than how they've been treated by DLNR and the courts.
applied for permits to build their structures
Meanwhile, other "non-protectors" (eg, those not claiming special sacred religious exemption) are often prosecuted for exactly these activities.
Merits and issues aside, State contributed heavily to the problem by not treating everyone "equally under the law".
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EricP states: The protectors were the ones breaking the laws.
The State of Hawai'i and their minions (both elected and appointed) also "broke the law", evidenced by the Supreme Court decision. Further, the protectors/protectors cases (those arrested) were outright dismissed, or they were found "not guilty", by a court of law.
Both sides should honorably declare "mea culpa", and move on, in the proper manner this time around.
Of note, please do not accuse the "protectors/protestors" for ALL of the egregious behavior. Reminding everyone there were alot of people up there who were NOT part of the core group of "protectors/protestors".
JMO.
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most of us can agree there was a lot of "not following the law" that went around on all sides
BLNR is being held to the "letter of the law" while charges against the protectors are dismissed...
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Yes, "that" DLNR.
http://www.westhawaiitoday.com/news/stat...ation-dlnr
Hawaii's chief of enforcement for the Department of Land and Natural Resources is stepping down after only six months on the job, citing "a culture of waste, fraud and corruption" in the department.
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