TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo

[Obie]

" zealous Republicans and Climate Deniers "

These don't exist in Puna , so not Hawaii related !!

[Aaron S]

quote:

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Originally posted by glinda
From what I can tell there are two polarized groups on the TMT threads that both act like that. The dominate pro-TMT crowd that liberally make disparaging and condescending remarks towards anyone that opposes their beliefs and the few anti-TMT'ers that get beat up by the pros every time they say anything. For me personally most of the time I do not see a reason to defend what I say. I say it and that's enough. And of course I do not feel inclined to respond to folks that are hostile. It's just not any fun so why bother. So I suspect I'm right there in the middle of the group you are referring to. I hope you understand.

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The door swings both ways. I've read some equally hostile comments by anti-TMT folks also. They also try to throw everything, including the kitchen sink, at the wall to see what will stick.

These folks claim the telescope will pollute the aquifer, the University of Hawaii doesn't have the title to the land, the military is somehow connected to the project, or the project will damage archaeological sites. Most of these issues were exhaustively addressed in the Final Environmental Impact Statement, which was accepted in 2010.

In short, the anti-folks don't like to disseminate facts, but a lot of drivel. This why its very frustrating to have a rational conversation with them.

[TomK]

glinda wrote:

"HereOnThePrimalEdge, your questions sound like you are asking me how I feel about zealous Republicans and Climate Deniers, all of which I think are insane. But I suspect you are asking how I feel about folks on punaweb.org that you think behave like that."

I think HOTPE was referring to people who make up claims about the TMT and other things they can't or won't provide evidence that supports their views. Nothing to do with Republicans or those who deny climate change (I don't know what a climate denier is, so am assuming that's what you mean).

[PaulW]

Gypsy make ridiculous claims about the telescope and other things (e.g. PGV) and when challenged falls silent. Then a few days later he does it again, repeating the same lies and throwing in a few more for good measure. How would you suggest dealing with someone like that?
Yes, I suspect anti-science people are a bit insane too.

[MarkP]

If one is out of touch with reality and doesn't respect the need for documenting claims then one is at risk of misinterpreting being held accountable with being abused.

[Guest]

Update here on the contested case hearing:

http://www.bigislandvideonews.com/2016/1...lip-notes/

I really have appreciated Bigislandnews, they have done a great job with their video's of the contested case hearing up to this point. jmo

P.S. PaulW, MarkP, Mahalo to you both for your loyalty and continued enlightening contributions. Happy Holidays.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

I do not see a reason to defend what I say. I say it and that's enough. And of course I do not feel inclined to respond to folks that are hostile. It's just not any fun so why bother.

Thanks for your response glinda.
I can understand how you might feel that way.

I also recognize the frustration mentioned by AaronS, TomK, PaulW, & MarkP when comments on Punaweb are made seemingly out of thin air, with no sources mentioned, or attribution, or any way to find out if they're credible. I sometimes feel that frustration as well when someone makes a comment of that nature then prefers not to respond to questions seeking clarification. And it may present itself in the occasional, as you referenced, "disparaging and condescending remarks."

So where do we go from here?
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

My suggestion is that perhaps the circle of life, as it relates to the give and take inside discussions here on Punaweb, and in the continuing exchange of knowledge and information, can best continue if the chickens lay their eggs, the eggs hatch and grow into chickens, then those chickens continue to lay...*
And on it goes.

* please, all tangential discussion of roosters and rooster "farms" should be confined to other threads

"One may pretend knowledge of philosophy more successfully than that of arithmetic." -Last Aphorisms (or how about, one may pretend knowledge with an opinion more successfully than with facts)

[punaticbychoice]

What did you delete now @ 9:02:17 gypsy69?

[Guest]

Deleted nothing Punaticbychoice, only added happy holidays.

Aaron S, Has it ever occurred to you that many of these "folks" you speak of may have been ignored or never heard since the TMT permits were granted well before the contested case hearing in this process? Now some may have had to throw the kitchen sink to the forums rather than courts to be heard.
Here is me throwing my bathroom sink:

I found the 503 pg EIS report to be very misleading at times because it stated many times that the TMT would have a minimal to no adverse impact to the summit area's environment. That may be far from the truth because once such a billion dollar project like the TMT's is added to the summit area, drastic changes may come.
For starters, it's not just the TMT operations and up to 300 TMT employees traveling to the summit area that may cause excess dust, noise, and other pollutants to the environment. It's the million visiting tourists a year to the TMT site that may also cause environmental harm or impacts to the summit area that should be included or predicted in the EIS. The many other businesses that come or follow such expansions as the TMT's on Mauna Kea should also carry impacts worth noting in the EIS, Resort Tours for example. jmo

Hawaiian Cultural traditions and practices like prayers and respectful gatherings may be negatively impacted far more from the TMT project and operations than what the EIS leads you to believe. The once calm and peaceful Mauna Kea summit area that was Kapu for most will be open season for tour vans full of tourists taking pictures of everything including the Hawaiians possibly during their cultural traditional practices. The large increase in foot traffic and vehicle noise, dust, and view intrusions and the TMT operations may limit or alter the Hawaiian cultural practices some of us would like to see promoted and protected. jmo

Aaron S, Would you try answering a few of my questions regarding the TMT project?
For starters, Are you sure the U.S Military will not or could not be involved with the TMT project in anyway?
Would you also know about other countries military intentions involved with this TMT project? say China? or India?

For example, China or India may have other intentions over the next 70 years, or gain helpful data or intelligence from Hawaii's Tmt. The JWST, is set to be launched within the next year or two, It will only be able to operate and collect Data for about ten years. The TMT telescope may become increasingly important to the JWST Satilite project as it's time or tenure shortens. The sharing or storing of important Data the TMT carries may be helpful or sensitive to other countries like the U.S, China, India or Iran. The development or accuracy of weapons to be used from space for things like war or nuclear deterrence programs may come from the help of the TMT.
I am a bit concerned that giant eyes in the sky like the TMT's on Mauna Kea could become future targets like pearl harbor once did decades ago. The TMT is worth billions today and possibly Trillions fifty years from now. If a country like NK or Iran wanted to interrupt or intercept sensitive Data, Intelligence, or currency the TMT may look like an important or easier target from afar than others. jmo

Would it be possible that the TMT project once built, could run out of funding? Could the tmt facility then be sold or taken over to be used for other purposes much like the Super Ferry?
Could the TMT "If" built in the center of the Pacific ocean be asked for any data from a military like the U.S, China, or India for say future target striking on foreign satellites or UFO's in space or around the world?

"If" the TMT was built and the millions of visitors expected do arrive every year. Would Helicopter landing pads for the military, tourism, or emergencies be allowed at or near the summit?

If the TMT project is built on the summit of Mauna Kea would it be decommissioned in 2033 when the current lease expires, or with the dozen or so other telescopes?
Also, Would the TMT be using "any" electricity being produced by the PGV or Helco's power plant in Lower Puna? and How much?
I have a hard time believing so much would be invested by the TMT corporation or by the many Governments involved without knowing or having some confidence in its tenure atop Mauna Kea. jmo

P.S. PaulW, HOTPE, MarkP, please chime in and answer any of these questions or concerns of mine regarding the TMT. Maybe you could try the sandwich technique to be nicer this time around. Mahalo in advance.

[PaulW]

You mean like this?

Hi there Gypsy!

How many times do you have to be told that the telescope has nothing to do with the military?
As I said, you keep repeating the same nonsense. Do you even read the responses?

Worth a trillion? A million tourists a year? Do you just make up these numbers?

Happy holidays!