TMT - Contested Case Hearing Status - Hilo

[Frank]

as long as the Sun an tha Moon are not relegated to set at the back of the bus we're good - jmo

[punaticbychoice]

alaskyn66:
"Next" Indeed.
I guess that's gypsy69's reason(s) for opposition to TMT?
I suppose it's as close an answer I'll get.
TomK:
Thank you for your response to gypsy69 - saved me some keyboard work.

[alaskyn66]

quote:

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Originally posted by HereOnThePrimalEdge

The moon and sun currently set over the mountain.. another telescope might make them set somewhere else.

Would that be caused by the overwhelming gigantic-ness of the TMT which blocks the sun & moon's normal descent as they set, or because the enormous PGV electricity consuming TMT air conditioners blow the sun & moon off course?

"Only fear real things, such as minds full of delusions." -Last Aphorisms

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Depends on who you ask..

[Guest]

If TMT is forced to move to the Canary Islands, the state of Hawaii is on the hook for hundreds of millions of dollars in liability. Try gross legal malpractice, deliberate legal sabotage, and violation of Constitutional rights for Due Process and equal protection under the Law. The general consensus seems to be that the TMT Consortium will simply eat the massive expense and sabotage imposed upon their project by the state of Hawaii and quietly fade away.

I do not think so. They will sue this state into the Third World. A gang of narcissists and vagrants are not the only people with 'rights' and this is going to cost Hawaii huge, not only in the loss of the telescope.

---------------------------

You can't fix Samsara.

[kalakoa]

the state of Hawaii is on the hook for hundreds of millions of dollars in liability

Meaning: our taxes will go up. Pretty sure I suggested exactly this a few months ago.

[Eric1600]

quote:

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Originally posted by gypsy69

I am concerned that The Tmt project may block views of Maui or portions of the sky from some areas of the summit region. The TMT project being built on the northern plateau may also replace needed or sought after feelings of solitude, peace, and calmness with large noisy air conditioners and tourism related traffic. I am really disgusted that native Hawaiians and the once endangered flightless Wekiu bug are being pushed away from their current home of Mauna Kea and Hawaii so that astronomers can continue to use Mauna Kea's precious resources in search of new planets, patents, lights, fame and fortune. jmo

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I have to wonder if you really have spent much time on maunakea. Should we also sue the clouds for desecration as they often completely block the view to the ahus on other island mountains?

If you actually accept Hawaii as part of the US then you'll know that religious rights are not absolute. Petitioners are obsessed with the removal of their freshly built ahus in the road. But If I erected a large statue of Thor on 130 in the middle of the night it would also be removed. Even if I could prove that Norse Vikings arrived here and left a few ancestors here and it was my cultural right, it would still be removed.

Likewise the recent idea that nothing should ever be built on Maunakea because of noise, dust, AC, blocking views is not realistic either. It lacks support both historically and culturally and religiously. The petitioners have yet to offer any proof they will be unable to practice their religion.

Making an argument that a Mosque can't be built in sight of a Synagogue is not something any court would entertain just because members of that Synagogue would be disturbed by the change in view.

Certainly the telescope is a symbol of the Western influence. Certainly the scientific community is willing to take great pains to insure everyone is satisfied, unlike the many commercial enterprises around the islands. And yes they are easier to fight and push back, but is chasing away a very green and growing ($93 million dollar a year spent directly here) industry the right thing to do? Just when more Hawaiians are starting to earn advanced astronomy degrees and returning to Hawaii?

You might agree with everything someone like Marti Townsend says but most of what she discusses is a problem all over Hawaii: garbage, habitat loss, development: https://dlnr.hawaii.gov/mk/files/2016/10...nd-WDT.pdf Is focusing all this anger with the goal of removing everything off Maunakea really the logical path to correcting these "wrongs"?

It might feel good because the astronomy industry is a push over compared to say a golf course resort, but isn't it perhaps a bit misdirected? It feels like a good holy fight, but in the end what does it really accomplish? A few people are less disturbed when they mount their horses and ascend the path up the "restored road" to Maunakea?

[Guest]

imagtek, Thank you for the good scare and third world laugh. If the state of Hawaii was sued by the TMT into the third world as you write.

Would our local and Hawaiian families lose their EBT cards, County Housing or health care?
Would our growing Homeless and many squatters lose their land?
Would our keiki lose their free breakfast and lunch from their Public school system?
Would our limited island resources lose value?
Would we lose our Walmarts, McDonald's, PGV, resorts, or the Tourism industry?
Would we lose the dozens of other large telescopes or the subdivisions on our Mountains?
Would our dangerous roads lose their natural lighting?


The state now wants to appeal the TMT sublease ruling.

http://westhawaiitoday.com/news/local-ne...ase-ruling

The TIO or TMT has paid less than 1 million thus far for it's rubber-stamped sublease. Maybe cutting their losses now and moving the project would avoid them from having to sue for hundreds of millions in the future.


TomK, you are my master, my king and my hero. Mahalo, for your continued contributions and deep concerns for our land, resources and equal rights as people. jmo

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

The TMT project being built on the northern plateau may also replace needed or sought after feelings of solitude
...
there is no evidence anyone went out onto the northern plateau to get some solitude

gypsy raises an interesting philosophical question. Can a specific location be considered a place of solitude, if no one ever goes there? The question is somewhat analogous to the age old query:

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

First we need to ask ourselves, if a person is not physically in a place of solitude, can he or she assimilate the "feeling of solitude" from a distance? Can s/he, standing in a yard on the flank of Kilauea imbibe "needed or sought after feelings of solitude" located miles away on the northern plateau near the summit of Mauna Kea?

If it is possible, then, what about another location? For example, what if I were to glance at the moon in the sky over Mauna Kea. Isn't the moon also a place of solitude? Could I as easily absorb a "feeling of solitude" (looking up from the flanks of Kilauea) from the visible moon as I could from the northern plateau, currently invisible from where I stand?

Then, let's consider the stars, planets, and galaxies over Mauna Kea. When we look at those inter-planetary, inter-stellar, and inter-galactic bodies twinkling in the night sky, is it possible that they and the vast distances between them might also provide a "feeling of solitude?" Those objects in space, are they not the exact phenomenon that astronomers study? Therefore, i.e., isn't it possible astronomers could lead us to an even greater, more vast "feeling of solitude" than we ever could have imagined without them or their observatories?

"Only fear real things, such as minds full of delusions." -Last Aphorisms

[kalakoa]

TMT suing State would merely accelerate the economic loss which will already happen due to Hawaii's reputation as a place which is hostile to business because any permits issued aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

As the saying goes: "you can have 10% of this dollar, or 100% of nothing."

Good thing we're so "protected" from that dollar...

[2liveque]

Gypsy,
With all due respect, you don't seem to have very high regard for anything local or Hawaiian. Just so you know, We are not all EBT or "Free breakfast in the schools" dependent. Your word choices on things (even if trying to be funny) sure does illustrates your frustration toward folks like me. But I understand. I too hate my folks at times. Especially the ones who break laws and make things sh*ty for other folks. Loud older Honda Civics with local male drivers usually get on my nerves most. But then again, I live down Kahakai. I chose to live here, so I deal with all the good and bad.

Here's the deal though. I refuse to look at Haoles as one homogeneous group. While there are many "locals" who believe 1) all haoles are rich, 2) all haoles suck, 3) all haoles are greedy -- only think of themselves, 4) All haoles suck, 5) all haoles only take take take, 6) all haoles are disingenuous/fake, 7) haoles will do anything for money, 8) haoles have no soul, 9)all haoles are racist, 10) all haoles have it easy -- we know in fact that this is not true for all haoles.

Keep that in mind when making the next EBT-dependent local people post.

....and now back to regularly scheduled programming.