Posts: 11,006
Threads: 749
Joined: Sep 2012
With this new comment by the Maui mayor, it would appear sacred rocks are now under a county by county jurisdiction. Not sacred on Maui, and for the time being generally sacred on Hawaii Island, unless they need to be rolled into a roadway. I'm not sure about the other islands. With the Mauna Kea summit area under state regulation, perhaps it's time for Governor Ige to make a pronouncement, if he has the required wherewithall.
No child will ever again doubt they could grow up and someday become president of the United States
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
Posts: 2,481
Threads: 10
Joined: Feb 2008
Nobody tries to refute Arakawa's logic? Because the "protectors" don't do logic? Unless it furthers their cause, then they'll take an inept stab at it?
Posts: 104
Threads: 2
Joined: Jun 2013
Thank you Richard Ha. Let science be a resource on our Island.
Posts: 10,210
Threads: 344
Joined: Apr 2009
All,
Whatever your views are about Arakawa's opinion, and I certainly have mine, simply ignoring, insulting or dismissing the arguments by those against the TMT about sacredness is not the way to go. It might be the right argument in terms of logic, reason and science, but it'll just make it impossible for astronomy to develop further here. Observatory and VIS staff have all experienced intimidation and the threat of violence from some opposed to the TMT when they blocked access to the summit (and blocked those needing to come back down). Giving them further ammunition by saying it's all about money when it certainly isn't, just makes a bad situation worse.
Posts: 14,101
Threads: 424
Joined: Aug 2012
From the 2/10/17 Pacific Business News:
Astronomers across 12 different observatories on Mauna Kea have determined that the universe is expanding faster than predicted ... most precise measurement yet of the Hubble constant.
The name of this cooperative scientific venture? H0LiCOW.
That would also be a good name for a scientific investigation into the Hawaii constant, that is, the speed at which this state drives science further and further away from the islands.
Posts: 664
Threads: 67
Joined: Mar 2016
On the plus side the case is on target to finish this month. We should know soon what is in store for the TMT.
Posts: 5,640
Threads: 101
Joined: Dec 2008
If you read the article and not just the headline then you'll see he said there are no sacred rocks in Christianity.
Posts: 2,481
Threads: 10
Joined: Feb 2008
Tom:
Of course you are right about how counterproductive it would be to focus too much on the logical arguments and dismiss the emotional ones.
Glinda:
At the risk of focusing too much on the logical arguments and dismissing the emotional ones, the local Hawaiian Sovereignty movement has placed great emphasis on issues of legality of the overthrow. The day before the overthrow there was a Hawaiian Monarchy. It is only fair and relevant to point out that on the day before the overthrow there were officially no sacred rocks in Hawaii according to the monarchy. Having placed so many of their eggs in the "turn back the clock to the day before the overthrow" basket Sovereignty activists ought to show more respect for the monarchy and not go around espousing values that the monarchy had specifically disavowed. Kind of like real news.
Posts: 2,481
Threads: 10
Joined: Feb 2008
So despite my feeble attempt at being conciliatory I pretty much just doubled down on the all logic all the time angle. I guess I should also prepare for technical flaws in my argument to show up. I don't specifically know what the monarchy said about sacred rocks other than that Christianity was made the law of the land. It seems reasonable to assume that what has gone on up on the mountain in the last couple of years would look different than what would have gone on under a Christian monarchy. Seems a relevant point.
Posts: 11,006
Threads: 749
Joined: Sep 2012
Kind of like fake news, don't you think?
It's a factual quote from the mayor of Maui, the highest ranking public official on that island.
You may not agree with what he said, and you may even have information that in your opinion proves him incorrect, but that still doesn't change his words from real to fake. Now, the content of his quote, sacred rocks, that of course can be debated until kingdom come. Along with the parallel or tangential discussion of... which kingdom?
My original comment was meant to show that not all islands have the same approach to handling situations like the TMT construction. The Iao Valley cleanup has taken a different approach as did the planning and development of the Honolulu rail system.
"If you build it, they will come."
Is that the tagline for a movie that's a heartwarming drama, a political potboiler, or horror flick?
TomK makes an important point however. Both sides are entrenched in their beliefs or their logic, and logic will not affect the minds of a believer or vice versa. It's a fruitless, disheartening discussion.
No child will ever again doubt they could grow up and someday become president of the United States
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
