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"If the protestors say the takeover was illegal and the kingdom should still be in charge, wouldn't the kingdom's own rules and laws still be in effect? Wasn't one of the kingdom's own laws/rules to make the old religion that was practiced, illegal? If these people believe in the kingdom, does this not make the entire case of sacred lands being violated, not true?"
Ask Harry Fergerstrom. He keeps claiming the Hawaiian Kingdom is the valid government, but also collects social security from the US - a fact he's made very clear in the current hearing - and just like Gypsy, says it's not enough. There are so many double standards from those that oppose the TMT it means no compromise is likely. As HOTPE wrote:
"Both sides are entrenched in their beliefs or their logic, and logic will not affect the minds of a believer or vice versa. It's a fruitless, disheartening discussion."
Good morning.
It takes two or more to fight or compromise. Some here have been blessed to live and work on Hawaii island because protectors have been compromising with the astronomy community for 5 decades. Many of the telescopes that make up the current astronomy subdivision or Capital on Mauna Kea are because many protectors have compromised in the past. Years of compromise or as some would rather say "sacrifice" by the many protectors may be part of today's problems and not the solution this time around.
If the folks from the astronomy subdivision and managment of Mauna Kea had done more for the Hawaiian people and island Keiki in the past 50 years, the TMT project may be viewed differently today. jmo
Why are there only two Hawaiian astronomers after 50 years of astronomy on Mauna Kea?
Why does Hawaii public schools and education rank near the bottom after 50 years of astronomy on Mauna Kea?
Why does Hawaii lead the nation today with a growing Homeless population that are mainly local folks who had compromised with the astronomy community for 50 years?
It may be very hard to have science and Hawaiian culture share the summit of Mauna Kea today because Hawaiian practices, traditions, and spirits have been disrespected and pushed away from Mauna Kea over the past 50 years. jmo
Embrace the Hawaiian people, promote their history, their culture and traditions. Make sure all Hawaiians have an equal opportunity of education, make sure they have a place and have a future here in Hawaii. Allow the current telescopes to Keep their promises of Decommissioning and removing all the telescopes from Mauna Kea by 2033, the year the lease expires. Allow the current telescopes to Except and pay their various environmental fines that may come after the removal of the current telescopes. Fairly Re-evaluate the valuable sacred lands of Mauna Kea and allow the people of Hawaii the choices of how best to use their resources of Mauna Kea. jmo
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Embrace the Hawaiian people, promote their history, their culture and traditions.
Wouldn't that mean putting the "protectors" to death for setting foot in the sacred auli'i lands which are forbidden to commoners?
allow the people of Hawaii the choices of how best to use their resources of Mauna Kea
What if "the people" decide a telescope is the best use of "their resources"?
TMT is projected to bring $30M/year into the local economy. Do "the Hawaiians" have a plan to generate similar revenue?
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Hawaiian practices, traditions, and spirits have been disrespected and pushed away from Mauna Kea over the past 50 years.
Hawaiian practices have not been pushed away from Mauna Kea, they have been drawn to, increased, and expanded. Because now there is a road making the summit far more accessible. Thanks to the astronomy community.
gypsy, please describe the Hawaiian practices on Mauna Kea summit before the road was built, which you describe as a better period of time for Hawaiian culture. Please describe how often the average Hawaiian made a journey to the summit, how it was accomplished, how long it took, etc.
Thank you
You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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My brother came to UH to study astronomy in the mid '80s and ended up working at the Infra-Red Telescope Facility for many years. He has been to the summit dozens of times over the years. Granted he was not there all the time but in those dozens of trips, if there had been so much cultural activity going on, you would expect he would have observed it at least a few times. He doesn't remember seeing much. I don't doubt that some cultural activity has been going on and I don't expect his anecdotal evidence to define the true level of cultural activity. I reiterate that he may not have been there at the right times. The IRTF views infrared and he was often there at night although he did stay at the dorms at Hale Pohaku and came and went during the day. However the activity he observed was inconsistent with that implied by the present day protesters.
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The astronomers are not responsible for poor schools and homelessness. But if they pack up and leave then everyone will be worse off.
And I predict gypsy would be the first to complain about it.
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quote:
Originally posted by MarkP
Granted he was not there all the time but in those dozens of trips, if there had been so much cultural activity going on, you would expect he would have observed it at least a few times. He doesn't remember seeing much.
He's right! If someone who had never been to Hawaii listened to all the talk in the hearing about view planes and telescopes desecrating the realm of the Hawaiian gods, he would expect that a minimum there would be some type of weekly worship like other major religious faiths. How often does the Temple of Lono convene on the summit?
Here's a letter published by the Hawaii Tribune Herald back in 2015.
http://www.hawaiitribune-herald.com/comm...-july-22-0
quote:
I worked with almost every telescope on Mauna Kea for about 12 years and spent five years working full time at the summit of Mauna Kea at Canada-France-Hawaii Telescope, living at Hale Pohaku every week. I also spent countless nights at the summit doing engineering or operating one of the telescopes.
While living on Mauna Kea, I explored every nook and cranny of that beautiful place in my off time. I know adze quarries and burial sites and caves all over the place. I know of an ancient Hawaiian astronomy site there, with a huge, comfortable resting area made of round rocks brought up or gathered by them. There are large stones and piles of stones all around, that were placed to mark compass points and where important stars would rise and set. I was told the ancient Hawaiians used this site on Mauna Kea to refine their navigational charts and calendars.
Here’s the basic problem with all the Thirty Meter Telescope protests.
Not ONCE, in all my years working and living up there, did I see any Hawaiians worshiping or performing ceremonies.
However, I’m not completely ignorant. I know some ceremonies were performed there, usually for an equinox or solstice every couple of years. Those were done at Pu‘u Poliahu and near the summit peak also. Both places are very special in my life. If the TMT was planned for either of those areas, I might be one of the protesters. Both have roads leading to them, but have no telescopes or anything.
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I don't know why, but for some reason, Gypsy keeps trying to deflect the topic away from the current contested case hearing, which is the topic of this thread.
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He wanders off topic in his mind, while some real gypsies physically wander here and there.
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Are most people aware that Eric Kalani Flores wanted someone to testify in the 2011 contested case hearing that was not a human being?
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