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quote:
Originally posted by ohiagrrl
Hawaiians like any other culture and religion have just as many political intrigues and influences as any other nation or religion. Not up to anyone else to decide what is valid and what isn't about Hawaiian culture.
This is basically untrue. It just feels good to say. If the Hawaiian Kingdom prior to the overthrow had established certain standards of conduct and if the modern day protesters base everything on the illegality of the overthrow, maintaining as they do that the Monarchy should be considered to have been continuously valid, then they are stuck with those standards as established prior to the overthrow. To argue otherwise is to try to have your cake and eat it too.
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To argue otherwise is to try to have your cake and eat it too.
And your choice of cake or cakes a la carte.
Before you eat it too.
You could never convince a monkey to give you a banana by promising him limitless bananas after death in monkey heaven.
"I'm at that stage in life where I stay out of discussions. Even if you say 1+1=5, you're right - have fun." - Keanu Reeves
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New post - The TMT Contested Case Winds Down
http://darkerview.com/wordpress/?p=21222#more-21222
quote:
Among the endless hours of testimony there have been occasional moments of fireworks. We have heard wild theories, mangled science, inexcusable ignorance, evidence of unemployment claims fraud, and several very likely incidents of outright perjury by telescope opponents.
Along the way several of the opponents that I had respected have trashed that respect. Try as I might I just have issues with their tactics, their behaviour on and off the stand, their continued use of alternative facts.
He continues with a very eloquent and insightful description:
quote:
It is a subculture within the community, a subculture that has become so steeped in a mythical past, a re-created Hawaiian religion that blends the old traditional ways, a good helping of modern new age mysticism, and a notable element of nationalism. It is this distorted idealism that leads the opposition to astronomy upon Mauna Kea.
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MarkP, I think the point is that now is one of those moments to establish some legal precedents about cultural basis as a means to prevent further land grab abuses. TMT may be an innocent bystander caught in the cross hairs of that moment or it may be a purveyor of further development at any cost to local resources, that is certainly the fear. You can talk circles around who the Hawaiians are (based on who they were) but that doesn't really change what's at stake. Everyone has an opinion and those inconvenienced seem short on courtesy. While I'm not generally a fan of British colonialism, at least the originals had the good common sense to buy someone dinner before getting handsy.
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[quote]
Originally posted by galileo
New post - The TMT Contested Case Winds Down
http://darkerview.com/wordpress/?p=21222#more-21222
So well put! I am hopeful it will make a difference...
Cheers,
Kirt
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Galileo from Switzerland, German side or Italian? Say for giggles TMT wins and you have a whole lot of disgruntled locals blame you for further marginalization, who would that ultimately benefit? Certainly not your staff who will live here and not the Hawaiians. Contingencies of amelioration need to be planned for and that would require some finesse, not just legalese. Please review my reply to MarkP above as well.
Ciao, Chus, Aloha
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quote:
Originally posted by knieft
[quote]Originally posted by galileo
New post - The TMT Contested Case Winds Down
http://darkerview.com/wordpress/?p=21222#more-21222
So well put! I am hopeful it will make a difference...
Cheers,
Kirt
Yes, he's a very good writer.
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Ultimately, what will Amano judge on? Whether or not there is significant cultural impact? The hearing is supposed to address a legal question, what is that question?
I used to debate at the varsity level. Sometimes the other side would make very emotional or even compelling arguments that simply didn't address the point at hand, and they would lose.
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Ohiagirl:
I disagree. The last 5 months of testimony should have been an unbroken series of moments to establish logical facts. The protesters have generally been inconvenienced by reality. There have indeed been a few times when they have been short on courtesy as a consequence. One of those times is when that freak unloaded on the girl student and talked about bashing people and cutting throats. Believe it or not another time (in my opinion) was when Ms Holi took a woman questioning her to task for somehow not showing her sufficient deference and said that her family was not pleased, saying further that "there were not enough police to stop them". If there had been any real rules in place to keep things civil and grounded in reality Aunty might very well have found herself in very hot water for such a comment. As it is apparently anything goes.
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Thanks MarkP for keeping the disagreement civil. I'm sorry to hear that but not surprised. Welcome to Hawaii. Some people are really in touch with their warrior spirit. Aunty must have a tiger shark as her amakua.
The general populous of Hawaiian culture is expected to continuously conform to Western standards and watch resources handed over without complaint. Certain Kuhunas having found new strength drew a line at their burial grounds. It's not a logical problem for these guys it's the last straw, an emotional dam that's bound to break if not respected. What seems ridiculous to you is dead serious to them and the inverse is true as well. I'm not seeing many alternate viewpoints on this thread either which at times seems like a lost chapter of Atlas Shrugged.
