Hawaiian DNA in soil atop Mauna Kea?

[Eric1600]

Originally posted by ohiagrrl
...Several people checking in were claiming no evidence exists up Mauna Kea at all, others saying that it ony dates back 10 years, others 200 years. Just saying that added scientific decoding of less visible evidence would settle the matter once and for all.

If you read the EIS and the court testimony it is clear that there is no physical evidence of any religious holy activities in Area E and that includes modern times. There are many concerns about new practices being effected (noise, dust, blocking a possible sight line, etc.) but this is all new. There's been a lot of studying to show this, so I don't understand the confusion.


Eric, I personally never said I was opposed to proper excavation with a kupuna present, I just personally would not take part.

Well I think the Kupuna would be opposed to random excavations just to search for things. When the TMT excavates it is done with an archaeologist on site or on call to deal with any signs of unnatural items.

I believe a full time native council needs to oversee events daily from now into perpetuity in any endeavor up on Mauna Kea. An native astronomer would have been ideal.

There are native Hawaiians involved in the management and daily monitoring. Did you watch the court hearings?

I hear and have heard your arguments and respect that you believe them and that you believe your personal stake on this mountain is as important if not more, than that of the Hawaiian peoples quest for self determination but even a whiff of impropriety got TMT into the jam it is in, largely due to missteps by its partners. ...if everyone believed that the new management was impecable, it would not be in court.

Let me stop you there. First off, the cultural aspect of the TMT is really something for Hawaiians to decided for themselves. I feel uncomfortable making any kind of "cultural" pronouncements or debates. Quite simply it isn't my place.

However I have Native Hawaiian friends with whom we discuss TMT and other issues often. So I'm not uninformed, however the decision really is for the Hawaiian community to work out. If the TMT fails it will be very sad for me, because I've always felt Hawaii as leading the world and I have enjoyed seeing all the kids competing internationally in robotics (and beating Universities) all due to TMT educational funding. I feel we all have something at stake here in loosing TMT, but I don't want to play a role in deciding the cultural impact of it at all.

I will however correct the record with anyone who wants to discuss it, which is why I am engaging with you on this topic. There are many outsiders (non-Hawaiian, mainlanders, etc.) who enjoy the drama of "Protecting Mauna Kea" but don't know what they are talking about.

And I don't think the small group of petitioners would agree with you at all about why they are in court. They fought against the Outrigger Program and now TMT. There is no compromise with many of them.

Community in an actual town hall with Hawaiians and not mask the smarmy confrontational attitudes behind a computer, I would pay to see it.

There's been public debates like this which you can watch on line.

[ohiagrrl]

Thanks for being informative Eric, I was only able to watch some of the hearings but am watching specific ones people point me to retroactively. Please feel free to tell me which particular witnesses you believe would help dispel my misguided beliefs.

[Carey]

OP, DO THE RESEARCH!
Here is a nice citation list for the beginning of the research you should do...
If you are unwilling to do this, do not disrespect those that HAVE done this research!
http://ulukau.org/elib/cgi-bin/library?e=d-0mauna-000Sec--11en-50-20-frameset-book-mauna+kea-1-011escapewin&a=d&d=D0.9&toc=0

[ohiagrrl]

Thank you Glinda! Ka'u kids built an award winning solar car with no help from TMT. TMT AS Savior. Not so much.

sCarey , learn to spell, then I will read it. JK, nice reading list.

[Eric1600]

quote:

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Originally posted by ohiagrrl

Thanks for being informative Eric, I was only able to watch some of the hearings but am watching specific ones people point me to retroactively. Please feel free to tell me which particular witnesses you believe would help dispel my misguided beliefs.

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I didn't say your beliefs were misguided, just that you should be more careful with making assumptions.

There were several people who talked about OMKM practices, TMT contributions and Native Hawaiian views that support the TMT. Here's just a few I can think of off the top of my head. I can't remember everyone.

* Chad Kalepa Baybayan
* Gunther Hasinger
* Keahi Warfield
* Wallace Ishibashi
* Richard Ha
There are a few others, which I can't recall at the moment.

Many are challenged with not being Hawaiian enough:

“Where did you grow up?”
“How old were you when you learned that?”
“Who taught you that?”
“When was the last time you were on Mauna Kea?”
“When did you last worship on Mauna Kea?”
“Where did your family worship?”
“Do you pray to Poli'ahu?”
“Who are the parents of Poli'ahu?”

As for Native Hawaiian involvement in manageing Mauna Kea which you seemed to think doesn't happen, the problem is the petitioners don't agree with who is native Hawaiian enough either for proper oversight. For many if things aren't getting torn down today then they are wrong. Mauna Kea Management and Hawaiian involvement: http://www.malamamaunakea.org/hawaiian-culture

glinda, TMT has planned starting in 2008 to find ways to help Hawaii be competitive in STEM fields. After meeting with the community they started a $1 million per year fund based on community recommendations and managed by locals. Funding robotics since 2010 and they've paid for many trips and clubs. Results in 2011:

Four high schools on Hawaii's big island have received funds from the TMT Project to date [2011] – Hilo High School, Kealakehe High School, Kohala High School and Waiakea High School – as well as Earl's Garage, a community-based, science-and-technology extracurricular organization in Waimea.

http://www.tmt.org/news-center/aloha-mr-...tics-teams

Other things funded by TMT ($1 million / year):

* Applied Science supplies and kits to the Volcano School of Arts and Science public charter school, grades 3-5
* What is STEAM & Why My Students Need Your Help Please, to the Laup'hoehoe Community Public Charter School, grades 3-5
* Future Health Professional—Providing Hope for the Rural Community, to Ka‘#363; High & Pahala Elementary School, grades 9-12
* Narrow the Achievement Gap in Mathematics, to Konawaena Middle School, grades 6-8
* March 2015, $500,000 in STEM Learning Grants were awarded to 23 Hawai‘i Island organizations.
* 2015, 24 Hawai‘i Island students received a total of $95,500 in awards ranging from $3-7,500. The students are pursuing 17 different STEM degrees, from aerospace engineering to zoology.

Thank you Glinda! Ka'u kids built an award winning solar car with no help from TMT. TMT AS Savior. Not so much.

This is really an unhelpful attitude. I also personally donate time and money to educate kids, so I know that it takes a community, not just one donor. Not once did I say they were a "savior" and getting $19 million bonus dollars for education is not something that should be ignored. And the TMT precedent will only encourage others to follow suit.

I should mention I'm not a astronomer or have anything to do with astronomy other than enjoying the night sky, having sailed the oceans myself. I appreciate the skills the ancient star finders used more than most people probably do. I'm a big supporter of STEM education and kids getting a chance to be successful.

[kalakoa]

the petitioners don't agree with who is native Hawaiian enough

That's a fairly classic pattern for Hawaii.

"We won't do it, and you can't do it for yourself either."

Less than a year to go -- and it doesn't look like State will step up.

At this point, the only party with any credibility whatsoever is TMT.

[HereOnThePrimalEdge]

I also personally donate time and money to educate kids, so I know that it takes a community, not just one donor.

Thank you Eric1600.
And thanks for taking the time to summarize all of that information in one place.

It really does take a community for most programs in East Hawaii to take flight. Go to any event, scientific, musical, or art related and either at the door or in a brochure provided by the organizers you'll find at the bottom of the last page, in small print, a list of donors. Generally it's 10-15 people and/or organizations who have contributed. Sometimes even more.

What's not always noted is the amount each of them provided. Often it requires every one of them for the event to take place. Perhaps a few have contributed the bulk of the funding which if not provided, might mean the end of whatever it is you're about to experience. Sometimes those funds are impossible to replace.

So much goes on behind the scenes of a robotics club, in the construction of a solar car, or for an art exhibit to reach opening night. They need strong, organized leadership, volunteers, parents, family, friends, as well as fund raising which will pay for the equipment, components, books, magazines, and a workshop space that's required. The devil may be in the details, but often enough there are angels in the details too, furnishing their support.

For a person who has never been part of the extensive team required to pull off such an undertaking, it might be easy to toss off a flippant or dismissive comment about those who are involved. Or perhaps they are working in the background on these types of projects and know whether or not the TMT's involvement is crucial or not. Or maybe they are diligently securing backup funding and grants to replace the $1 million a year that may be lost if Hawaii loses the TMT. If that's the case, I'd like to say thank you to them as well.

On the fifth day - the scientists who studied the rivers - were forbidden to speak - or to study the rivers. -Jane Hirshfield's poem on creation

[ohiagrrl]

Thanks Eric, as always, very informative and earnest. I appreciate that TMT is on course to help aid educational efforts on this island and if somehow they win their case, you are showing me that it will be a boon to many. Bravo for keeping it civil, you have the patience and temperment to be an intermediary if you were to embrace more of the ideas that the Hawaiian Spiritual Community keep raising so let me try to hone in on the point.

It is the attitude that these incentives overshadow the spiritual value of the mountain to the Hawaiians that is the general rub here. To Traditional Hawaiians there is no Area E, the mountain is Sacred. As the burial place of ancestors and realm of sacred lore, it is by extension an ancestor itself. This is a concept that has been embraced by other Colonial Countries such Australia and New Zealand in their highest courts. Winning human designation as pertaining to law for The Whanganui River by the Maori sets a legal precedent worldwide for natural entities considered sacred by First Peoples to have rights equalling those of humans.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/m...uman-being

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4468078/New-Zealand-Playboy-model-poses-naked-Mt-Taranaki.html&ved=0ahUKEwi35uXNxdTTAhXlyFQKHaldC2sQFggfMAE&usg=AFQjCNFIh3-Cll34Yq6torTitKHLl-kNpA&sig2=Haim5Q3dtuePouqUTeQfsA

That being said there are plenny non traditional folks of all races here, I just don't see too many modern Hawaiians or Hapa defending TMT on this site or out in public. I think you may be making an assumption that people are afraid of not looking Hawaiian enough around this issue. YES this theme is a hard fact in Hawaii, but I see many locals of all interwoven ethnicities holding their breath collectively to see what is possible for Hawaiians regarding Western laws on the path toward recognition and self determination, all historically playing out right now. While TMT losing would certainly hurt the plans and pockets of many fine people and concurrent projects, including the educational institutions designed to at least in part prioritize the betterment of locals, in the long run TMT losing may be the best thing to happen to race relations since Hawaii became a State. Hawaiians being afforded some dignity on the primary issue that has conjured some form of organized protest into the courts. You can't put a price tag on that. Will Hawaii State recover the loss of such a prestigious entity as TMT economically? Yes. Will there be other suitors for the mountaintop if TMT decamps? Yes, mountaintops like these are not everwhere. Perhaps if the shameful acts of Kuiper and NASA, levelling cinder cones are admitted to and some how ameliorated post decommisioning 2033 for today's Hawaiian population, things could move forward and obviously with far more Hawaiian oversight and approval from self appointed commitees, so that the Wally Ishibashis of this community don't somehow end up deciding by accident or by ego what is and isn't proper comportment on Mauna A Wakea.

Carey, in browsing a few of the articles on line by Kepa Maly or Kumu Pono, I am hard pressed to find many or any assertions that contradict what I have been saying. Since you got so irrate, you must know of a specific piece of evidence that counters a specific point I made? Feel free to direct us there. With the exception of a few notable names like Pauahi and Liluokalani, the reading list is otherwise mainly comprised of Western Authors which while I would happily explore if I find myself with loads of free time, but from a cynical point of view, just saying, to the victors go the spoils and history is written by the winners.

In a time when Academia is doing some of it's finest work collectively it finds itself also under siege by anti elitists who come in all forms. Why is this? Could it be socioeconomic; could a student loan system designed to crush students have soured a large part of aging adults as well as new parents not endowed with a trust fund? Could it be tunnel vision? Could academic inability to see beyond it's own bubble because it is so hyper focused on it's own agenda be, as I am told repeatedly, how most scholars survive? This behavior has largely been rewarded through remuneration and praise until lately where cultural cracks of disatisfaction are starting to show themselves amongst the rabble. It must be shocking as a collective to be in any situation where Academia may not win immediate primacy. Welcome to the world the rest of us live in, scholars. Surviving loss builds character or so I am told by many scholars Perhaps Academia needs to evolve socially as well as intellectually.

JP Sears does an amusing spoof on youtube called Higher Education.

Editted for clarity.

[Eric1600]

Originally posted by ohiagrrl
...you have the patience and temperment to be an intermediary if you were to embrace more of the ideas that the Hawaiian Spiritual Community keep raising

Why do you assume that a few of the religious is the authority for the whole community? I know many native Hawaiians who disagree.

It is the attitude that these incentives overshadow the spiritual value of the mountain to the Hawaiians that is the general rub here. To Traditional Hawaiians there is no Area E, the mountain is Sacred. As the burial place of ancestors and realm of sacred lore, it is by extension an ancestor itself.

To some traditional Hawaiians this is true, but to others it is not. I don't know why you argue so aggressively for one side of a group. There is almost zero historical evidence to support this idea that the entire mountain is super sacred more than anything else. Even past actions that are documented well demonstrate that, like when the road to the summit was first built. http://www.hamakuasprings.com/2016/02/is...ly-sacred/

This is a concept that has been embraced by other Colonial Countries such Australia and New Zealand in their highest courts. Winning human designation as pertaining to law for The Whanganui River by the Maori sets a legal precedent worldwide for natural entities considered sacred by First Peoples to have rights equalling those of humans.

The part your missing here is how are those precedents established? And what does it mean? Can you kill an ocean or lake? Can you really injure a river? Those are all very subjective ideas and I think that is something you should consider that perhaps there's no absolutes here and perhaps you're not the person to be in the cultural position to make making those arguments for others.


That being said there are plenny non traditional folks of all races here, I just don't see too many modern Hawaiians or Hapa defending TMT on this site or out in public. I think you may be making an assumption that people are afraid of not looking Hawaiian enough around this issue. YES this theme is a hard fact in Hawaii, but I see many locals of all interwoven ethnicities holding their breath collectively to see what is possible for Hawaiians regarding Western laws on the path toward recognition and self determination, all historically playing out right now.

No Hawaiian wants to step out in public to support the TMT. The anti-TMT people have issued death threats to teenagers and have openly and verbally attacked critics. At the same time many Hawaiians are frustrated with being outsiders to much of the system. Those that are for building the TMT don't want to be public advocates. The ones that I have met are shunned by people who've known them well for 30+ years. Very few can set aside the emotional issues and discuss it logically. I've seen it take years for some Hawaiians to come around to the idea that the TMT is a good thing for Hawaii, but they still won't openly discuss it due to the attacks and being shunned.

Even kids are afraid of telling classmates they want to be an astronomer. And this is the damage being done to Hawaii with these "not Hawaiian enough" attitudes. "You're either for us or against us!"

Hawaiians being afforded some dignity on the primary issue that has conjured some form of organized protest into the courts. You can't put a price tag on that.

Stopping a peaceful and extremely low impact construction like a telescope isn't a victory for dignity. Fixing the problems with Hawaiian Homelands would be a much better victory. Fixing the problems with eduction and getting better jobs, stronger economy and establishing leadership in the world, fixes dignity. Shutting down a group of people who bend over backwards to help the community and provide knowledge to the world, perhaps not so much dignity there.

Stopping the TMT would be a short term win that might feel good, but really does little to change anything for the public in general. Sure a few people praying won't have a particular part of their view blocked for the 60 minutes or so once or twice a year they are on a mountain. The the downside is much more damaging.

Will Hawaii State recover the loss of such a prestigious entity as TMT economically? Yes. Will there be other suitors for the mountaintop if TMT decamps? Yes, mountaintops like these are not everwhere.

It's unlikely that other telescopes will pursue Manua Kea if TMT fails. And based on your arguments, I'm shocked you think that is an acceptable backup option...to build a TMT2? Really? What on earth would make TMT2 acceptable to you? I would be also interested to know where the State is going to get $19 million for education to managed by local organizations without taxation or state involvement. Won't happen.

Perhaps if the shameful acts of Kuiper and NASA, levelling cinder cones are admitted to and some how ameliorated post decommisioning 2033 for today's Hawaiian population, things could move forward and obviously with far more Hawaiian oversight and approval from self appointed commitees, so that the Wally Ishibashis of this community don't somehow end up deciding by accident or by ego what is and isn't proper comportment on Mauna A Wakea.

The "shameful acts" are part of public record and the OMKM plan and process prevents any future problems like this. And based on your previous comment that more telescopes will come, what do you think will happen in 2033? There won't be a massive decommissioning. 2033 is the renew of the lease, no where has it ever been described as an "end date". There is a process for building spiritual structures on Mauna Kea for a good reason. It's easy and emotionally satisfying to point a finger at Wally but do you really want every tourist building Ahus? Your finger pointing is another "not Hawaiian enough" type of attitude.

I'm not sure what your motivation is for being so anti-TMT but I hope you take a long look at yourself and ask the hard questions if your involvement and stance is really helping anyone but yourself feel better. The emotional hardliner attitude has already torn the Hawaiian community apart, it's better to find common ground for most people than keep tearing at what is left just to satisfy the minority on the fringe.

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I just watched the spoof you recommended https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8utmmWoBSBY to try and get an idea of where you're coming from, but I found it unhelpful. I just hope you don't feel a college education really boils down to just going into debt and becoming a useless "degree dropping" unemployable impractical and out of touch person.

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I just want to add the perspective of religion constantly knocking on the door of science and education for their own issues. It's something that has gone on for 1000's of years in every culture. Yet you don't see scientists and educators knocking on the church doors to make demands of them. If you have the patience, here's Neil deGrasse Tyson humorous talk on the issue of religion's encroachment and the effects it's had https://youtu.be/Ej5GnHJcGCM?t=2911. Hopefully you can watch from about 48 minutes to end.

I don't pretend to have any answers for the Hawaiian community, however I think they should rationally decide if stopping the TMT is really in their benefit or not. I know those discussions take place and I've seen minds changed, however due to the hostility and aggression most don't even want to think about much less deal with it..

[kalakoa]

the damage being done to Hawaii with these "not Hawaiian enough" attitudes

Nothing is ever "Hawaiian enough". Anyone not born here will always be a haole, no matter how much they participate in the community, no matter how much time and money they donate to charitable causes, no matter what kind of house they live in. All haoles are forever outsiders, mere visitors, here temporarily.

TMT never stood a chance.