HICoP Rally Saturday Sept. 9th 6-8 pm

[TomK]

Time for another episode of "The Scousers" I think...

https://youtu.be/dw9RuwD9sqQ

[mermaid53]

Thanks for the chuckle Tom....

[MarkD]

More comments:

1. HOTPE, Pardon my misreading your comments Tues. I was disengaging from a debate and quickly scanned your comments. Failed to observe they were a challenge.

2. The method of opposition to my characterization of the helicopter tours as “elitist” is odd. Received comparisons to both buses and cars. Really? I use the term elitist somewhat like “first class,” but slant it pejoratively. (My opinion).

A tour bus takes 35-40 people to a destination. A car takes 3-4. What is the per person cost for each? For gas per person, say? None of this is first class or elitist. A limo arrives with 3 people. Per person cost on limos is generally much more than on tour buses. Buses--economy; limos--first class. Helicopters are like limos. But limos park in the lot like everyone else. First class but not elitist.

Helicopter operators are elitist because how they intrusively and arrogantly project themselves into both general public space and into public space close to homes. And operators get indignant when someone objects. Why are you complaining about my flying over your house? I got rights. Just deal with it. (Not their language, of course, but this is the gist of their sentiment.)

3.“People taking helicopter tours are generally well-to do; it is a pretty exclusive activity.” I made this comment to a HiCop organizer. He disagreed, stating that all kinds of folks take the tours. He observed most visitors have $1,000 plus set aside for pricey activities: surfing lesson, dolphin swim, ATV ride, diving, helicopter tour, fine dining, sunset sail, etc.

My opinion was wrong. Hence it seems one can conclude the following: If helicopter operations are severely curtailed, say by 50%, the visitors don’t take that money home. They likely spend it elsewhere. Hard to prove, of course, but gloomy predictions about lost revenues to Hawaii’s economy from a restricted helicopter industry seem much exaggerated.

(As far as the operators’ personal finances, separate question. Other tour operators have had to deal with new realities. NPS restricted bike tours down Haleakala. Now some of the dolphin tours being curtailed for environmental purposes. The public interest comes first.)

4. Another poster: It amazes me how much people argue aggressively over nothing on this forum.

Strange that anyone would consider this issue as trivial.

5. An elaboration of my “core group” comment, re overlapping group positions: “pro-TMT” and “pro-helicopter.”

TMT has widespread public support, helicopter tours not nearly as much. Both discussions on Punatalk are marked by the pro-clique engaging in collective argument against dissenters. 3 to 1, sometimes 5 to 1 or 2. Might be termed mild harrying by numbers. Add in some mildly derisive comments from the clique’s ever-present cheering section (4-5 Torys).

Apparently some would-be-challengers on the helicopter issue are dissuaded from trying to take on the pro-helicopter clique. I have no complaint. The real issue is the strength of your arguments. The no restriction on helicopter tours position is feeble. Your seeming dominance on Punatalk, illusory.

6. IMO, regulation is coming. Example:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/manh...-1.2515497

New York is a long ways away, but what happens in one U.S. city on this issue is important. Precedent.

[PaulW]

Helicopters do have the right to fly over houses. You don't own the airspace above your house.

I have taken a few helicopter rides here, I have rarely if ever seen people below.
They don't fly near people, most of it is over areas where people don't go (like where the flowing lava is).
So how are they "arrogantly" (now there's some objectivity) putting themselves into public spaces?

As for noise, I get 100x more noise assaulting my senses from motorcycles and cars specially modified to be as loud as possible.
Now that I would sign a petition against.

I don't even notice helicopters, they're probably being drowned out.

Hawaii survives on tourists. We have to extract as much money from them as possible, with their compliance of course.
Putting a stop to an activity that generates thousands if not tens of thousands a day on the basis of envy and
unproven claims of excessive noise is not a good move.

[Eric1600]

4. Another poster: It amazes me how much people argue aggressively over nothing on this forum.

Strange that anyone would consider this issue as trivial.

MarkD, I know you like to thrust and parry with your well enumerated important concerns, but we are talking about noise from tour helicopters and the creation of an active group of protesters against the noise and a bunch of people on this forum all adding to the noise both pro and con. If you can't find a more trivial first world problem, then I don't know what to say. Try living in Keaukaha home lands for a month by the airport.

If someone is of the opinion that 50 helicopters are flying over their house and it bothers them, I'm not going to go out of my way to argue about it. It's just not on my list of things to worry about.

[MarkD]

So how are they "arrogantly" (now there's some objectivity) putting themselves into public spaces?

Why doesn't the state of Hawaii, indeed all other states, allow off-road vehicles to many dozens of parks and natural areas? Why doesn't the state build dozens of new access roads with new parking lots so people can be closer to every beach and every natural area? Why should people have to walk-in to any natural site?

Not just because of the physical damage the vehicles would cause to the terrain. Officials also do this so the area keeps its "natural" character. So people can enjoy a site without the noise of machines. That, believe it or not, is an essential element of parks, as many people define them.

>noise assaulting my senses from motorcycles and cars specially modified to be as loud as possible.

Yes, car noise is bad, modified engines are worse. This supports my point: Modern civilization is filled with vehicle noise, but we try to set site standards. 3 categories, really: 1) Dense urban areas (Honolulu) with constant noise 2) Rural areas with (hopefully) only intermittent noise and 3) natural areas with (hopefully) no noise. Ideally helicopters should not be over national parks at all, but a reasonable compromise would be one or several flight areas with restrictions. Over residential areas there should be limits. Conversely if you move near an airport, you know the deal.

3 points on last paragraph:

1) Not sure why you are still going with the envy argument

2) Again, it is an open question as to how much general revenue would be lost.

3) "unproven claims of excessive noise" Not sure you folks want to keep making this claim. We can all agree the term "excessive" is subjective. It appears it is the frequency of the flights more than the volume that is the problem. That is why New York has set limits. Hopefully we can have that discussion in Hawaii.

[MarkD]

Eric: If someone is of the opinion that 50 helicopters are flying over their house and it bothers them, I'm not going to go out of my way to argue about it. It's just not on my list of things to worry about.

No problem. Not sure why you are engaged on this (and I am not trying to be rude). There are many threads I am not interested in. I do not go there to tell people I am not interested or that their topic is inconsequential. Is this helicopter discussion depriving Punatalk of valued space?

[PaulW]

There is no proof. That is the definition of unproven. If you have proof, let me know. I won't hold my breath.

Every time this comes up I ask where it is I have to go to experience this Helicopter Hell and every time there is zero response.

My theory is that the complaints are coming from people mainly likely you, inspired more by envy and spite than anything else.
I too have no proof, I just see what sort of things they write.

[PaulW]

Eric, I agree with you! But sometimes I just can't stand by while lies are spread around. I'll get over it.

[Eric1600]

No problem. Not sure why you are engaged on this (and I am not trying to be rude). There are many threads I am not interested in. I do not go there to tell people I am not interested or that their topic is inconsequential. Is this helicopter discussion depriving Punatalk of valued space?

I guess you didn't notice that I have been involved in this conversation from early on [page 2 Posted - 09/12/2017 : 06:39:58]. All this bickering probably buried it. I asked a question that I think is on the minds of many: What happened to the HiCoP project to record daily flights?