Meeting and Petition for Pesky Helicopters

[seekir]

quote:

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Also,about the pilots having complete free choice once airborne,that is not exactly true.

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A pilot of a tour aircraft can follow legal and community-based regulation once airborne, and has considerable latitude to choose his own course/altitude even within purely legal bounds. However, what he or she actually chooses to do in flight is entirely in his own hands once airborne regardless of what the FAA, his employer, or the community may prefer. Enforcement of regulations regarding operation of aircraft is often limited, and an account of a violation is generally a "he-said, she-said" affair with limited tangible evidence of precise altitude, course, or even positive identification of particular aircraft suspected of rule violation. Because of this, I would say the pilot's approach to his/her work and attitudes toward community concerns are the main governing factor in the way tour aircraft are operated. That being said, my experience is that careless tour pilots generally are promptly curtailed here in the islands by management when word of persistent noise complaints due to lack of concern for noise abatement reaches them.

It seems the FAA itself is a bit fuzzy on what constitutes a "congested area.":

What is the FAA's definition of a “congested area”?

“This question often comes up when trying to determine the minimum safe altitude for operating an aircraft. In [CFR] 91.119, a "congested area" is defined as a city, town, settlement, or open-air assembly of persons. According to a Letter of Interpretation from FAA legal counsel (http://www.aopa.org/epilot/redir.cfm?adid=8604 ), there is no standard definition for a congested area, but case law has indicated that a subdivision of homes and a small rural town constitute one. Because it has been interpreted loosely, consider an area congested if you are in doubt.”

Source: AOPA ePilot Flight Training Edition; Volume 6, Issue 13 -- March 31, 2006.

This is the Federal regulation regarding Air Tours specifically in Hawaii, SFAR No. 71 -- Special Operating Rules for Air Tour Operators in the State of Hawaii:
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http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and...enDocument
Section 6. Minimum flight altitudes. Except when necessary for takeoff and landing, or operating in compliance with an air traffic control clearance, or as otherwise authorized by the Administrator, no person may conduct an air tour in Hawaii:

(a) Below an altitude of 1,500 feet above the surface over all areas of the State of Hawaii, and,

(b) Closer than 1,500 feet to any person or property; or,

© Below any altitude prescribed by federal statute or regulation.
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It's considerably stricter than the FAA part 91 regulation applying to non-tour operations, and apparently is not dependent on the (congested or uncongested) nature of the area where the flight is conducted.

[Thunderfoot]

Thanks that is good info.
But there are many issues here besides altitude :


Relevant Topics List
By the Citizens Against Overflights Association (CAOA)
in regards to overflights

1.) Federal Register of Environmental Documents
2.) 23 Federal Laws and portions that pertain to preservation of resources
3.) National Park Service
4.) National Park Service Act
5.) P.L.100-91 National Parks Overflights Act of 1987
6.) National Park Law. to preserve the natural environment and wildlife in it.
7.) Joint National parks Overflights Working Group
8.) Yale law Journal of Laws and articles like for livestock damage due to overflights
9.) Punaweb Forum-topic” Meeting and Petition for Pesky Helicopters
10.) National Parks Air Tour Plan
11,) Senator Akaka’s speech in 2004
12.) Air Tour Management Program
13.) Police rules for marijuana eradication, they are not following this for sure. and they are illegal; they can not commit a crime to enforce the law.
14.) Clinton speech, found at #1 on this list
15.) HRS 158,159 and 1189
16.) Endangered Species Act, the Hawaiian hawk,nene goose and others are at risk.
17.) Transportation Security Administration, no security and no id to get on an air tour charter flight in Hawaii.
18.) Real estate Laws, disclosures of over flights as a material defect to private property, and ownership of airspace issues.
19.) Noise Laws, like the one below:
20.) Hawaii Administrative rules Title 11-Dept.of Health, Chapter 46-Purpose-
21.) Constitutional and Civil Liberties and Declaration of Independence, deal with your rights to enjoy your home, privacy and others
22.) Hawaiian and Native American Laws protecting sacred sites and ceremonies
23.) National Park Conservation Association ,they have two papers,one”park service and FAA jurisdictional roles”,and two,”protect natural sounds”
24.) National Parks Air Tour Management Act of 2000
25.) Organic Act of 1916 in regards to our National Parks

Anyone that has any questions can contact the CAOA for more details.

[Nightowl]

They are flying in this vog! Are they crazy?They are flying in a caustic cloud that is highly errosive and can cause engine stalling and failure.Wasn't there a case back in 1998 or so where paramount pictures was filming and went down in the crater?

so much....and so little time

[Thunderfoot]

There was an incident that I know of back in 1989 when Redoubt volcano was erupting and a 747 jetliner had all four engines flame out when it flew through an ash cloud 150 miles away from the eruption site.The plane fell two miles before it restarted its engines and landed in Alaska.There was 80 million in repairs to the plane.

Also in 1991 20 aircrfat were damaged from volcano ash clouds more than 600 miles from the erupting Pinatubo volcano.These are facts from "U.S. Geological Survey Fact Sheet 030-97"
There are other examples.

I wonder how chemically close are vog and volcanic ash clouds?

[Thunderfoot]

Oh,I looked up the Paramount Pictures thing.It was Nov.1992 and a Bell206 crashed in Pu'u O'o crater after it flew into a volcanic gas plume.The engine failed and the crash was ruled as a hard landing.
http://www.hawaiinews.com/archives/volca...0307.shtml

[Nightowl]

That answers that,and yeah it would be interesting to know what the diff is between vog and a volcanic ash/gas cloud ?

so much....and so little time

[Thunderfoot]

I will research it when I can.
I did find out that commercial over flights were stopped ,permanently ,in Rocky Mountain National Park around 1996,by the Garden Club of America.That is amazing.If they can do,so can we.

[Thunderfoot]

Okay,results of research revealed that vog is volcanic gas mixed with fog,and it is very rich in sulphurdioxide;which is highly corrosive.Two strongest acids known to man are,sulphuric and hydrochloric acid.It can't be good for anything mechanical.The math is easy here.

[Thunderfoot]

This SUNDAY we will be at a booth in the MAKUU MARKET.I will personally arrive about 10am.The booth will be informational and we will have petitions for people to sign.Hope to see ya there.

[missydog1]

re volcanic ash:
USGS says:
"Ash ingested by jet engines may lead to the immediate deterioration in engine performance and engine failure. The principal cause of engine failure is the deposition of ash in the hot sections of the engine. Glass from melting volcanic ash will coat fuel nozzles, the combustor, and turbine, which reduces the efficiency of fuel mixing and restricts air passing through the engine. This causes surging, flame out, and immediate loss of engine thrust. Ash may also seriously erode moving engine parts, including the compressor and turbine blades, which reduces the efficiency of the engine."

Volcanic ash can cause all engines of a jetliner to lose power in less than a minute. It's not a matter of corrosion over time.

This page from the havo site:
"Do Hawaiian eruptions pose a threat to aircraft?"
http://hvo.wr.usgs.gov/volcanowatch/2004/04_08_26.html
explains that volcanic ash comes from "explosive" eruptions, which Kilauea has had in the past but in not currently, then goes on to explain about "effusive eruptions,"

"In terms of everyday operations, explosive Hawaiian eruptions pose infrequent but significant threats to aircraft. Effusive eruptions, which are much more frequent in Hawai'i, also produce airborne particles, but to much lower densities than explosive eruptions.

The only incident of aircraft problems due to Hawaiian eruptions was the crash of a Bell 206 helicopter in November 1992 in the crater of Pu'u '?'?. The helicopter, which was carrying a film crew from Paramount Pictures, flew through the volcanic gas plume.

The plume is known to be highly corrosive and low in oxygen, and the helicopter's engine failed as a result of ingesting volcanic gas.

The threats posed to aircraft by effusive eruptions are just a severe as those posed by explosive eruptions, but only for the area immediately around the vent or vents."

Edited by - KathyH on 10/26/2007 22:09:15