Building with wood? "You might wanna..."

[kani-lehua]

Rob Tucker
Kama'aina


1869 Posts
Posted - 08/23/2008 : 17:52:43
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"One of the main problems with the nonstop maintenance and attention wood structures require is that people get old. They reach a point in their lives where they too often lack the energy and the money to keep the place up and the house starts to run down. Add a leaky roof and before long all you own is a mess. So they build or buy their home, pay their mortgage, pay their taxes and just about as the house is paid off.... it is ready to tear down."
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i totally agree with the above. we had to take over the maintenance of this house in kailua because the parents just let it go . this house is 52 years old redwood. it was the trim, furniture and newer addition that were attacked. luckily, those things were replacable. other home in ewa, was practically a teardown and was sold for the value of the land only. kapolei home is regularly treated for both ground and drywall termites. one can treat, treat, treat and they still find a way--we tented kailua in 2006 because they were coming from our neighbor's christmas berry tree.

"chaos reigns within.
reflect, repent and reboot.
order shall return."

microsoft error message with haiku poetry

[StillHope]

Thank you,everyone again for the interesting conversation.
I am all for the "in the long run" - invest as much as you can and have less worries in the future.
Jay just answered the question I've been asking myself - why people even bother to build houses from wood if the other option available?
I learned not to worry too much about the volcano...to the point that I managed to forget about it sometimes..
My other guess that a concrete house,probably,much more expensive.
But if I had a luxury of time to start my project all over,I'd have tried hard to find a way to build a concrete house.

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by StillHope

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I learned not to worry too much about the volcano...to the point that I managed to forget about it sometimes......

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Much of my ohana was displaced by Lava taking their houses... I'm glad they had a good back up plan. Lava can turn up anywhere on this Island... I mean we are made of Lava.

I lived in the wooden Waiakea Villa Condo's with my Girlfriend for awhile. We broke up... and I moved out... she stayed.... 1 year later the place burned to the ground.... Nope, I didn't have anything to do with it.[][B)][:0]

I was fortunate I was already out of there... she didn't have that choice and was from Japan.... She was SOL for a few weeks despite having parents that were helping her financially looking for a new place to live.

Another friend of mine lives out Fern Acres.... Built himself a wooden house. Left one day... and the Battery Packs that ran from his solar panels exploded.... caught fire and his whole house burned down.

My wifes Grandmother (RIP) lived in a house less then a 1/4 mile from where Rob Tucker lives.... Termite ridden and built back before Hawaii was a State.

We just inherited it.... It's unsellable and will have to be rebuilt because of all the termite and neglect from years of Pahoa weather.

Building with wood.... I wouldn't do it.

However, I have seen pictures of JW's house and it is fricking adorable!


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[StillHope]

Just wondering if anyone who currently built the house with wood tried to estimate the cost of a concrete variant of their project?

[Carey]

Not knowing your plans & all, it is hard to make a comparison... one thing is true for both Calif & Hawaii... there are manpower &/or materials needs that vary for each type of construction you are thinking of.

If you have a plan, and have some builders in your area that do different types of contruction, you may want to do ballpark comparisons with them... this will give you an idea of the range differences for the different types of construction. You can then use this range to get a approx. idea of the range change in Hawaii.... with a HUGE caveat... some materials are crazy expensive &/not available here that are more available mainland...

Some little tweaking things you can do with any house... look at you specifications of siding, interior walls & trim... you may be able to eliminate wood & paper in some of these items.... then look at your choices of cabinetry & decor... again, look to reduce your wood load... (and no particle board or MDF board) & most - all of these will not have much impact on the planning you have already done...

If you want to go with a no wood house... it can be done, but at a cost, including restarting your project.... not earth shattering (oh, speaking of earth-shattering... earthquakes are very unforgiving to lithic structures like concrete blocks (hollow tile) & other mortared structures... )

Remember that ANY & EVERY home material used here has a weakness that Hawaii can exploit... steel (even stainless steel) corrodes, concrete & stone cracks, wood gets eaten & burns... I have not yet seen a building material that can withstand everything Hawaii can throw at it... in a way, living here is proof positive that you are aware that you cannot control most things, and are lucky if you can just keep up with the maintenance.

[Rob Tucker]

Stillhope, I know that it is not easy stepping out of the wood frame box. There is a huge institutional set up geared to doing things the way they already are. The biggest hurdle are the builders themselves. In my opinion a true homebuilder will not flinch if asked to do something other than wood frame. If they know their job and abilities the material choices, even new ones, would not be intimidating.

Secondly I think that the builder relationship should be carefully considered. A "general contract" can be a real burden. It is, by nature, an adversarial relationship - which means that the interests of the contractor are always the opposite of the interests of the buyer. There will be constant tension in the opposing goals of contractor wanting to maximize profit and buyer wanting to maximize their home. If the relationship goes bad about the only remedy is court... at which point the buyer is screwed (house isn't done and can't afford lawyers). I think a well drafted Project Manager Agreement is better. A PM is guaranteed a set fee whatever happens and if the relationship goes sour all the buyer has to do is say "Your Fired" or the contractor can say "I quit".

The most practical alternatives to stick frame consider in my opinion are:

1. Light gage steel frame with cement panel sidings (which I suggest cost about the same as wood frame).

2. SIP panels in precut packages (which I suggest cost about the same as wood frame).

3. ICF concrete buildings are the highest standard (which I suggest cost about 5% to 20% more for the shell depending on the system selected).

It's not an easy apple to apples comparison. If all you want is what's cheapest then don't try to think outside the box.

[StillHope]

Thank you,Rob and Carey!
I do understand that owner -builder with a project manager is ,probably,the best way to go if you live where you build and if you have cash available for the project.
Construction loan is not easy (to say the least) to get even with my perfect credit history and no debt.I am very grateful that I was given that chance.
Banks prefer the general contractor.I can not blame them.
I am also very grateful that I have a very good and reliable one.
I got the plans from the owner of the original house and made min.changes.
The builder didn't say anything in particular,except for the necessity of using a crane (and the expenses on that),but somehow I felt that for the price of my project I can not do the concrete house.

[JWFITZ]

I think this thread has is offering unusually good advice, which is nice to see. I think if I were interested in large structures, I would be much more interested in concrete than I currently am. I advocate heavily remodels and small structures for ecological and ethical reasons, and strongly suggest that is where the future must go, but at this point the smaller the house one builds, the more difficult and costly on a square foot basis it becomes. But, that is another issue entirely.

Oh yes, owner builder is by far the way to go, the most honest, and the best for both parties. The main reason people chose a general contractor to take on the project with a general contract, is that they feel that they don't know enough about the project to be involved. That's probably true, but if you don't know that much, you're not in a position to determine if your contractor does either, which of course is the basic problem. If you don't know anything about building--don't build. Buy an existing structure.

As for Rob's question a while back about wooden boat owners. Wooden boat building is making a very strong comeback. Of newly built custom boats, a very high percentage is wood, or wood laminate construction, probably 80 percent or more. Of production boats, fiberglass is still common, but the market is shrinking yearly, and of large yachts, aluminum is probably the largest demographic. The reason for laminate wood boats becoming the dominate type of construction in boats size to perhaps 70 feet is simply that it's the cheapest, strongest, aesthetically attractive, and long lived of any type of structure. What has really tipped the scales is the cost of fiberglass resin, which has risen 10 fold in the last 15 years, making even small fiberglass projects expensive. If I can get started building catamarans, it's completely possible to grow the lumber on site nearly as fast as I can build boats. That's about as green as any endeavor can be.

[StillHope]

[quote]Originally posted by JWFITZ
If you don't know anything about building--don't build. Buy an existing structure.
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It could be a good advice if you are absolutely sure that the house you are buying is built by the owner who is a very good builder and planned to spend "the rest of his life" in it.
Otherwise you are taking the same chances as you build.
And if your builder comes with exceptionally good references,your chances are better.
And you are forgetting that it's much more expensive to buy,if you are comparing apples to apples.

I have a perfect example -I am building exactly the same house I couldn't afford to buy.(Note: it was not overpriced)
And my location is way better.
Not to mention,that the owner made some mistakes in the building he mentioned to me to correct in my project.
I would have discovered them only"after the fact".

Anyway ,we are off topic...

[JWFITZ]

That's fair. It's hard to know at this moment what is more cost effective. You can find houses at more or less give-away prices at the moment, and a hi-bor stud is 4 bucks. Of course each individual build requires individual analysis.

I think the termite thing is a bit overblown. You'll note telephone poles are not tipping into the streets with each gust of wind, maintained houses are not collapsing, trees, even standing dead ones, are mostly sound. We can learn from that. What is it that occurs when you take a standing dead tree, that may have been dead for 30 years, and you mill it up, and suddenly termites show up to eat it? Obviously it's something in the usage of the material not the material itself.

Here's hopefully some useful tips, mostly from boat-building, and craftsman construction, that will help any wood-be(lol) do-it-yourself have much more success with keeping bugs out. Wood construction is handy, user-friendly, and it's not going away--although I'm more than willing to admit it's simply a matter of the best thing for the job at hand, and there's no way to answer that with a blanket answer.

1) If you can't completely encapsulate wood, keep it wide open. You can preserve wood indefinitely by various poison treatments, or you can seal it off to any possible penetration. You must do one or the other, and you must go whole hog with either route Both work. If you miss a spot with the paint, however, thinking you're sealing, now you've created a perfect place for bugs and rot to start.

2) Use screws, not nails. Modern screws are cheap, and with a good pair of cordless drills, one drilling tapered pilots and one driving screws, you can assemble in a very tidy fashion nearly as fast as you could pound nails with a hammer. A nail gun is faster, for sure, but you'll split stuff up, misassemble, and basically create all sorts of cracks and crevices for bugs and rot. As well, if you need to repair or remodel, it's possible to get those screws back out. With nails, its a wrecking bar and a saws-all, and a near 100 percent waste. Drive with beeswax. I use surf wax sometimes too as it's always in the truck. The beeswax preserves the wood around the screw and the screw itself.

3) Don't leave end grain exposed, and anyway, treat all exposed end grain. Just keep a bucket of terminix near the saw, and when you get done with a cut, give it a dip. This alone would probably eliminate 90 percent of termite damage on the island.

4) Work tidy. Make stuff fit. It's cracks and crevices in ill fitting joints that get full of crud, wet, and invite bugs. It's nothing that can't be done with practice, and you will see wood framed structures so nice that it's a shame to put the sheetrock on. Rarely, very very very rarely, but there are guys who work like that.

5) Don't build crap. Meaning, if you're going to build a house, a boat, or a chicken coop--build something nice that gives you joy every time you look at it. Don't slap up stuff that is going to fall apart in a year, as it's purely wasteful. Wood is hard to beat for the pure asthetics of it, and it matters, because something you have pride in owning you will take care of, and something you have little respect for you will neglect. Obviously, this will affect the useful lifespan of the object. In a world where every resource is becoming more and more scarce and precious, there is a greater need to deal with respect the material, the purpose, and the application of anything you do. Especially if you're going to build something in this most precious place.

6) Lastly, every time you build something out of wood, plant a tree.