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Yes, but you disagree in an honest, civil way. Actually, that's what I'm talking about: the value of having an honest discussion rather than people screaming their dogmas at each other. You've shown on this forum that it's possible to be honest and straight-forward without bating and pushing people in a box.
JMHO. Let's get that beer soon, Jay :-)
Tim
A superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds in his actions--Confucius
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So, Punafish...
Just just because a few people use some language you don't like you want the whole thread deleted?
Is the use of these words so devastating to you that you can't stand the thought that they might exist where someone might see them?
How about you point out where the discussion went from talking to name calling, let people know what you think. That is the point of a discussion board... you know.... to discuss.
Transplanted Texan
"I am here to chew bubble gum and kick some *** ... and I'm all out of bubble gum"
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I do not believe that America is better than everybody else...
America "IS" everybody else.
The Wilder Side Of Hawaii
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On an open forum in a diverse community as Hawaii is, you will need give the posters a lot of slack. I have been told many times that my writing stile is harsh and abusive. (to many years of talking to computers and not people). I have seen posts from people all over the world and some use the "you vs me" all the time, it part of their culture, along with the name calling.
Ever have a debate with someone from the middle east or watched them debate each other? very ugly thing to see... to us... to them its normal.
Transplanted Texan
"I am here to chew bubble gum and kick some *** ... and I'm all out of bubble gum"
-----------------------------------------------------------
I do not believe that America is better than everybody else...
America "IS" everybody else.
The Wilder Side Of Hawaii
Posts: 8,472
Threads: 1,033
Joined: May 2003
Having been a victim of gun crimes my biggest single problem with this topic is the ease with which people want to inflate and inflame. Burglary is a non violent crime. It is not murder, it is not attempted murder, it is not armed robbery. It is not a capital crime. I note the difference. When a gun enters the mix everything changes.
By raising nonviolent crimes in this discussion to the level of violent ones sense immediately goes out the window and fear and panic become the driving force.
My worry is that by inflaming and exaggerating the situation a self fulfilling prophecy can occur. Before we know it or want it the area turns into an armed camp. The us's eye the them's with constant suspicion and the gun sellers are happy. Tragedies occur.
I have only noted one person posting an interest in joining a neighborhood watch. I really would hope that more of a collective approach to crime as a problem might replace the individual concerns. My admiration goes to the neighborhood watch volunteer.
Assume the best and ask questions.
Punaweb moderator
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Never said I wanted the thread deleted, never said I didn't like the language. Rob doesn't want POLITICAL dicussions that are not local to Hawaii. I know that you know that. And just so you understand where I'm coming from, I'm totally for free speech, free market, all the stuff you love. All I want to know is, what value (other than entertainment) will come from bating each other? ("You dope-smoking, fuzzy thinking people who disagree with me", etc.) Will it accomplish anything? Should we not be truthful AND civil? I think it would be a bit more meaningful, that's all. But it's not my forum, just my humble opinion.
Feel free to discuss away, Jon.
Tim
A superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds in his actions--Confucius
Punafish Wrote:
“All this is moot anyway since Rob will surely pull this discussion off the board.
Happy holidays, aloha and Kumbaya!”
“None of this matters since the discussion has escalated beyond the scope of this forum and Rob will likely clean it up.”
Have you ever seen a more cowardly approach to a situation then statements like this. Not only dose this person want to sweep it all under the rug he/she wants it removed form sight so as not to ever face it or deal with it.
It‘s no wonder that HPP is under attack. I hope that you Punafish are not one of my neighbors because. If a situation ever happened where I desperately need someone’s help I’ll bet that you would turn your head the other way. Or maybe turn to Rob for direction.
The Lack
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I might be mistaken by I think burglary is a felony in this state... and is thus viewed as a violent crime.
Transplanted Texan
"I am here to chew bubble gum and kick some *** ... and I'm all out of bubble gum"
-----------------------------------------------------------
I do not believe that America is better than everybody else...
America "IS" everybody else.
The Wilder Side Of Hawaii
Posts: 2,655
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Joined: Sep 2006
quote:
Originally posted by Rob: Burglary is a non violent crime.
I don't know the Hawaii guidelines, so yes it's a "back on the mainland" comment, but in some places, burglary of an actual residence rates as a crime of violence.
quote:
originally posted by Jon: I might be mistaken by I think burglary is a felony in this state... and is thus viewed as a violent crime.
It being a felony doesn't by itself make it rate a violent. The laws of some states(Texas being one) mention by statute that for purposes of sentencing when previous convictions are taken into account, residential burglary is counted as a violent crime. There has been rulings that it must be the actual walled residence that is burglarized for it to be able to be counted that way.
Pua`a
S. FL
Big Islander to be.
Pua`a
S. FL
Big Islander to be.
Posts: 1,168
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Joined: Jun 2005
This is what I mean about bating. People who want a civil discussion are cowards?
I won't waste my time with you.
Aloha :-)
Tim
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value.”
Robert Pirsig
Tim
A superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds in his actions--Confucius
Posts: 1,273
Threads: 41
Joined: Oct 2007
I wouldn't join a neighborhood watch because it A) isn't needed where a neighborhood looks out for each other and B) Doesn't work where it doesn't. It may well be a step in the right direction for some, but it to my mind is a symptomatic not a systemic approach, and we need the latter.
Maybe to offer a sensible look at the issue and clear a bit of ire out of the conversation.
1. Does personal gun ownership deter crime? No, of course it doesn't. If someone breaks into your house they have no idea whether you are a gun owner or not.
2. Does personal gun ownership enhance the possibility of personal safety? It depends--in the same manner that owning a powerplane may not necessarily make you a more skilled wood worker. But, clearly, the possibility exists that it can. The skill and attitude and usage is the determinant, not the tool.
3. Burglary isn't a violent crime, but it can become one in a heartbeat with the slightest mistake. Again, the gun is not the determinent, rather it is the confrontation that a burglary makes likely. Rarely this confrontation occurs because of the widespread absentee ownership of property subsidizes this kind of crime. But, it will. Gang activity is clearly locally on the rise with more signs of it all the time, and one should expect to see more as the economy gets more difficult.
4. While personal gun ownership is no deterrent to crime, can a "systemic" culture of responsible gun ownership deter crime? Potentially, and there is good evidence that it can. In areas where "right to carry" laws were implemented, Dade Co. Florida one of the most studied examples, crime rates were indeed positively impacted.
Again, I think it's very important to frame the conversation not in the context of "pro/anti" firearms. This is a straw man argument and not pertinent to the conversation. The real argument is whether or not one will be personally proactive in protecting themselves and their community or whether they will defer/ignore that responsibility. Once one embraces the responsibility of not being a "victim," the question becomes one of "how?" As with any "how?" one looks for tools. The rest is obvious.
