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HPP under attack!!!!
The data on the Swiss would indicate to me that perhaps the difference in violence is societal and not a some simple pro-gun/no-gun thing. Jamaica and East Timor both have extremely prohibitive laws, and very high violence. In Hawaii, since the more restrictive gun legislation was passed in 68, the murder rate has tripled. It is still low, but three times what it was.

Once we get our society figured out, which should be our first order of business--we won't need to have this silly conversation about firearms any more.
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I researched the gun laws, and other than Concealed Carry and registration, they are about the the same as Texas.

Its just a matter of time before Hawaii has its own "Luby's massacre". Then people with change the laws.




Transplanted Texan
"I am here to chew bubble gum and kick some *** ... and I'm all out of bubble gum"
-----------------------------------------------------------
I do not believe that America is better than everybody else...
America "IS" everybody else.
The Wilder Side Of Hawaii
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I don't find Hawaii unduly oppressive either.
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I don't like the fact that if they do decide to ban guns, they know all the people who have them legally... and can go get them....



Transplanted Texan
"I am here to chew bubble gum and kick some *** ... and I'm all out of bubble gum"
-----------------------------------------------------------
I do not believe that America is better than everybody else...
America "IS" everybody else.
The Wilder Side Of Hawaii
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India has strong gun control, even their police don't shoot back. Think 911 couldn't happen again?
Gordon J Tilley
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I think the point of the conversation is this:

The gun issue, either pro or con, has basically no pertinence to the conversation. The problem with crime is a social problem, not a gun problem, ans we need to address it as a social problem.

The gun issue, flatly, is this. We live in a violent society where our citizens have not taken due responsibility to deal with societal issues that create violent action. The result is that we suffer from crime, and sometimes violent crime. Personally, since society or government is unwilling at the moment to make sensible tangible moves for a better society, unfortunately, is to live like a feral human and shoot people who theaten your property. And, hopefully, if you've got a sense of community spirit, shoot people that threaten your neighbor's property and wife and kids too.

There is a place for tolerance, forgiveness, and all the rest. Really! As well, there is a place for utter intolerance of action, in the face of stuff that needs to not happen, and not ever happen again. This attitude, to stand against that sort of thing, is what is historically called virtue. Virtue, as a root latin word, means more or less virility, and in other ancient cultures means mostly integrity. It was defined in Zoroastrian culture in two terms "telling the truth, and being a proper bowman." How far we are from that kind of ethic!

Elsewise, around the world, the notion of tolerance and forgiveness is mostly lacking. Still, the notion of Virtue in the classic sense does apply. For example, if you were a Samurai in Feudal Japan, you might choose to forgive a crime--but the fact is that the forgiveness only matters because it was an elective. Likewise tolerance, if you have the power to let it slide, or not let it slide, you can claim, rightfully, a moral high ground. If you are a disposed weakling that isn't willing to embrace the human responsibility to care for your own welfare--well, what the hell is YOUR forgiveness worth? Did you have any other option?

The right to forgive and be tolerant is the exclusive prerogative of those who have the means to deny it. Hence the root of civil society. At least at our current level of evolution.
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"And, hopefully, if you've got a sense of community spirit, shoot people that threaten your neighbor's property"

Well, that counts me out. Dang.
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An armed society, is a polite society.

10 out of 10 criminals prefer their victims to be unarmed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6Kr6J5Zb0M
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rbakker; Hopefully you would take some action to protect your neighbors property or family. Shooting might not be necessary, but one would hope you would take some action as we all have a responsibility to be proactive in our community.

dick wilson
dick wilson
"Nothing is idiot proof,because idiots are so ingenious!"
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The Problem with the WORLD.

Problem 1 of 5

The Human Race is unique in the animal world. We are Born inquisitive and mischievous. This is good and bad. Left unchecked we run amuck. We need to be guided by strict rules and heavy consequences when we are young. We also need to go threw steps in our life.

Step one; learning right from wrong.
This can only be accomplished threw punishment, both physical and mental.

Step two; learning value.
This can only be accomplished by starvation. The need for things we want but can’t have unless we go out and earn them ourselves.

Step three; education.
This can only be accomplished with a good school system backed up by good parenting.

Step four; involvement.
Once educated, we need to become involved in the world we live in. We need to help our neighbors. We need to help our employers. We need to help our government make the right decisions. And above all we need to teach our children these 4 steps of life.

Problem 2 of 5

Government;
I think we all have to sit down and READ the Constitution, then read it again and again until you understand it completely. At this point you need to decide if this is the country you want to be a part of. IF it isn’t, leave. You have plenty of countries to choose from. IF it is, you need to help fix it.

At this point we have some extremely tough work ahead of us if we want to regain the Greatness of this country. It’s become a self destructive set of rules developed and maintained by the people we have elected into office. At this point they appear to be 100% self-serving. We need them to start working for US. We need to break the cycle of professional politicians. This country is a HUGE Company, and it’s bankrupt. We don’t need politicians running it, we need businessmen. We need people that know what it’s like to be broke, to have to balance their checkbooks, to have to EARN what they want.

Problem 3 of 5

Unions;
We need to reign in the unions, they were once very necessary in this country, but they have become too big and powerful, and like government, self-serving. It’s time to force them to either give a little or get out.

Problem 4 of 5

Radicals;
These groups are minorities, hell bent on getting their way regardless of what it destroys. We need to put them in their places. Everyone has a pet peeve; this doesn’t give us the right to force our beliefs down anyone else’s throats. We need to cut these groups off at the knees and force them to go by the same set of rules the rest of us have to.

If your cause is just, you’ll get a following peacefully. If it’s not, you need to be stopped.

Problem 5 of 5

Media;
The media is a very important part of our world, it is suppose to be the place you can go to become educated about the world around you. It has become an outlet for lies and deception.
We need to set up rules to govern the honesty of the media. IF you are going to air a program under the pretence of being the NEWS, then it should be just that, NEWS. Not an editorial. If you want to air your opinion, do an editorial, but call it that.

There needs to be punishment for outright lies and deception, half truths and obvious omissions.

These 5 problems are not repairable with a quick cure, but we have to start somewhere. We need to repair the very broken system of life. It’s near out of control; we all have to do our part. Throw away your self interests and repair the system. If the system is good, your self interests will be met.

I'm done for now....

Oh and Good Morning Neighbors [Big Grin]

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