You dirty rat you

[Guest]

quote:

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Originally posted by Rob Tucker

I can see zero reasons why gun fire in a residential neighborhood should be tolerated...

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Rob - How do you suggest we kill our pigs humanely and at a cost that won't risk one of my family members getting a hoof to the face?

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[csgray]

From Jon: "Again did you note that miles of open land on both sides of the neighborhood? Or the Fact of the neighborhood only being 1 mile wide? So that open land is 1/2 mile or less away from everyones homes?"

What this neighborhood is surrounded by is irrelevant, the issue is shooting a gun in a suburban neighborhood. The surrounding area doesn't change the reality of how close together the houses are there, and how many people are in close proximity. Lack wasn't shooting his gun off in the brush surrounding his neighborhood, he was shooting in his yard.

Hawaii County allowed all sorts of subdivisions to be platted in the middle of ag and forest land. These were mostly land scams and no one really expected people would ever actually live in these places. The goal was to sell cheep Hawaii lots to main landers who would never see what they bought. A lot of swamp land was sold in Florida around the same time. The result is residential neighborhoods with small lots that are zoned ag and surrounded by ag land, but are increasingly suburban in nature as they fill in. Zoning and land use planning will eventually catch up and redefine a lot of these places. In the mean time there is a conflict between life styles and the gun issue really brings it out. Personally I would like to see the small lot subdivisions rezoned as residential with good nodal development of commercial and light industrial so all of Puna doesn't have to drive to Hilo for jobs, goods, and services. But that's just my opinion.

Back to the gun issue, Lack may be a conscientious gun owner and user in his own mind (and maybe even in reality) but the State of Hawaii, acting on behalf of the collective sum of our community, has set some reasonable limits on where you can and can't use a gun. I am not rabidly "anti-gun" but I have known enough complete wing nut gun owners whose judgment about where and when it is appropriate to use a gun was so completely off base that I am a big supporter of limits on where guns can be fired. I had neighbors whose idea of constitutionally protected fun on Christmas, New Years, 4th of July, or if they just did enough meth, was to start shooting at the stars. The simple fact that what goes up must come down evaded them and they seemed to think that their bullets just traveled out into infinity. When the duplex next to us was reroofed the roofers were blown away at all the bullets they found embedded in the roof. This was not the house of the shooters either. Am I supposed to entrust the safety of myself, my family, and my neighborhood to the judgment of every person who manages to scrape together enough money to buy a gun? Or do we as a community come to some sort of agreement as to where people are too close together to be firing guns?

I actually agree with Jay on the need for the government to not be the only people who have arms, but I still don't think you should be firing guns in a suburban neighborhood if you or someone else isn't in danger. That doesn't make me anti-gun, just pro-safety.

Carol

[Jon]

Really, you think you can tell if one gunshot is 500 feet away or 2000 feet away with even through the jungle... wow you are good.

By the way I heard another shot just before dark, should I be under my bed?

So now you are saying we were all swindled out of our money by buying were we did... hmmm nice...

I would like to see all of 130 zoned retail/commercial too, think it will happen?

So, because you know some bad people, all good people must have their rights taken away... also nice of you... how many of these same people were just as dumb with cars? I guess you don't own a car as is it is one of the most dangerous tools ever made.

suburban neighborhood? LOL Not.

Pro-safety? How many people in Beaches have died from gunshots?
How many had died from cars?


Transplanted Texan
"I am here to chew bubble gum and kick some *** ... and I'm all out of bubble gum"

[Bob Orts]

quote:

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Originally posted by JWFITZ

To report a single report of a firearm wholly without context is irresponsible. And it is this kind of knee-jerk reaction that is insensible and dangerous.

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So, if a person hears a single gunshot but has no other basis to suspect a crime, reporting it is a knee-jerk reaction that is insensible and dangerious?
O.k., I'll play. You go away for a week and when you arrive home the police are at your house. You immediately asked what happened and they say your (spouse, lover, mother, father, sister or brother, you pick) was visiting and was shot in the face at your front door. They say the person lay bleeding in pain for 36 hours before finally bleeding out and died. The next day you read in the newspaper how 10 people heard a gunshot but did nothing because they didn't want to be insensible and dangerous by reporting it. Some said they acted 100% correctly by not reporting the gunshot they heard because it would have been a knee jerk reaction to a single gunshot. One person even said that it was the stiff's responsibility to get shot more than once so people know it was associated with a crime. After all, how were we as neighbors to know someone was dying when it wasn’t multiple shots, which might have indicated a criminal act?

The press ask you how you feel about the comments of the neighbors who went merrily about their day to day lives while your (fill in the blank) was dying on your doorstep.

How would you truthfully feel and answer?

[Jon]

Easy, if I heard it and it was from one of the houses near by I might go check or call the house... but if it was a block or 2 away... I would let it go.

Would I feel bad if someone died? Yes... but then I feel bad when anyone dies, and it happens a lot.

again, how many people has this happened to around here?

Transplanted Texan
"I am here to chew bubble gum and kick some *** ... and I'm all out of bubble gum"

[Bob Orts]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jon

Would I feel bad if someone died? Yes... but then I feel bad when anyone dies, and it happens a lot.

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No, No, No... Not Someone, your immediate DEAD family member!
I'm not interested in a debate over how many, if ever, some un-named face, I'm saying your neighbors heard a gunshot, (and it matters not if one house away or thirty) did absolutely nothing, and believe they did the absolute correct thing by ignoring the gunshot while your relative bled to death on your doorstep because they were not going to react in a knee-jerk manner. Be honest, at what point will that support for inaction turn to rage over inaction? I say it would change immediately when it comes crashing down on a person personally.

We see this in our DUI laws. People yell and scream when little Brianna gets smushed by a drunk driver. We need tough laws, we need zero tolerance, and we need the death penalty. Yet when we have a "few" social drinks of wine at the art gallery opening and drive home, and get pulled over near the house, and fail the sobriety tests... suddenly the law wasn't meant for us, it's for all the others drunks. These laws are not meant for us social drinkers but for the "bar drunks".

The second someone is personally touched by a single bullet smashing through their love one's brains and everyone who heard it did nothing, those same people saying well if it's one house away it's this, if it's 5 houses away it's that, if it's a single shot it's this, if it's multiple shots it's that, if it for a rat it's this, if it's for a fly it's that.... When it happens to them they will be the first person yelling and screaming that those people who heard the noise and did nothing should be charged with criminal negligence.

Now, with a straight face, tell me I’m wrong.

[Jon]

Sorry, Your Wrong... or at least I would not be one of the goofy people you speak of.

If we are going to just dream up things...
How would you feel if someone cut your "fill in the blank"'s throat on your door step and they bled to death? Better make sure to call the police on anyone that might have a knife... or how about a chainsaw? better round those up too.

If you are going to just dream stuff up, do you call the police every time you hear a car speed away? They might have just killed someone...

I think you might misunderstand my point of view... If Tom was shooting at a rat and hit someone or did damage to someones property, he is liable, completely, Just as if he were driving and hit someone or something, drunk or not. You can't protect everyone from what "might" happen.

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security
Benjamin Franklin




Transplanted Texan
"I am here to chew bubble gum and kick some *** ... and I'm all out of bubble gum"

[iboost]

quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Lackey

iboost,

I have many guns most are registered and the police have a familiarity with it, and me. They came by and said,”hey Tom what’s up with the gunshot? No, they didn’t come in with pistols drawn and shotguns cocked and when they realized it was my house they almost express joy. There was no need to show them the rifle since I told them that I popped a rat out of my avocado tree with rat shot. He enquired if it was a head shot and I said, yea you bet, it’s the only way to flatten it with one pop. Then I showed him the extinguished rat and he said “nice shot.” To be sure that he was doing the right thing he read me the riot act about setting up an KO Corral situation in my backyard. I said, you are absolutely correct officer and opened another beer and saluted the Puna police for being so goddamned reasonable. For the record, the guns I own that are not registered ain’t in my house here.

Wow, all of this because I shot a rat. I have a new approximation as how to deal with these dirty rats. I’m going to construct a small landmine under my coconut trees with an electric ignition source. I’m planning to bate it with peanut buttee and then observe. When the rat starts to consume the bate I’m going to blow his keister into kingdom come with a magazine of BB’s under the bate. It may be a little loud, in fact it will be a LOT louder. but I won’t be discharging a firearm within a residential neighborhood. I wonder if Greg would telephone the cops for that, yea he probably would, Greg might call if he heard thunder without seeing the lighting.

The Lack

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Haha, I hear ya man. Let's mix up a big batch of explosive and make land mines - LOL, I bet you'll get some crap over that one too! I wasn't trying to insinuate your guns were illegal by any stretch, I was just wondering about the local police's temperment when they got there... Sounds like they are familiar with you so they may have let you off easier than they would an unknown like me...

[Greg]

I hope no one thinks I'm anti gun, I'm not. I also support the enforcement of DUI laws; does that make me anti car?

_____________________________________________________________________
Quote:
"By the way I heard another shot just before dark, should I be under my bed?" - Jon
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No gunshots in my neighborhood for Months,Jon. I can't honestly remember the last incident. Because we, as a small community won't put up with it. We used to hear gunfire regularly, even automatic fire, and from the same couple of people. I don't think there were any arrests, but they eventually got tired of the police attention.

You, on the other hand, seem to be quite happy with the echoing of random gunfire. It does seem like it would be difficult, however, to tell if someone's letting off steam, shooting vermin, cleaning a weapon drunk, commiting a murder, or just excercising their constitutional rights. Talk about crying wolf.

It's not my kuleana though. If the people of Hawaiian Beaches are agreeable to random shots, that's their pleasure/problem.

I meant no insult earlier. I'm not sure how you could have taken my comment that way.

Lock and load baby.

[JWFITZ]

Bob, you're wrong.

First, you are asking the wrong person for this question. There are places to play this ill-conceived question, and I'm not it. Mostly your posts are sensible and well thought out. This one isn't it. I spent my formative years as the son of an funeral director in a small town, and I know more about death than most everyone on this web page combined. I don't think that's a boast. I've probably personally buried more people than you know by some measure. It is a perspective that I carry, and I have no apologies about it, as I know personally denial is the central fact, the central coping mechanism of human existence. Knowing this, first hand--denial, unfortunately, is hard for me, personally, to achieve. This generates my perspective.

Guns are a non issue. If you want to get worked up, look at the sugar cookie in your hand.

You are asking a question as absurd as if I heard a skill saw go off, one, twice, three times and no board was cut if I felt I had personal ownership of whether some "skill saw murderer" existed. Uh, no. Not all crimes involve sound, Bob. Or context. My dad buried a series of girls murdered by sodomy with an air compressor. This, is horrid, I can tell you, and I will spare you the details of what a young lady turned zeppelin looks like. Still, I don't call the cops every time I hear air. Should you call the police every time you hear--hssssssssss?

One in 40 people die in car crashes. Do I freak out when someone is an hour late from a grocery store? No, actually, I don't, as I know, personally and viscerally, there is nothing I can do about it.

There were 150 fatal car crashes on the big island last year. Please forgive me, this is a quote from memory. If I remember right, near a 100 of those were due to drinking. How many shootings were there? How about this--how many fatal accidental shootings were there? 1? I don't know, it isn't many if any. There probably isnt a single one. If anyone wants to be reasonable, call the cops every time you see a car go by. If anyone wants to exercise the phone, here's a place to start. Even if you made a call every time a car went by, unselectively, you'd likely convict more people of crimes than you would calling in people shooting rats. And you certainly would prevent more deaths.

If you're concerned in a real manner about children, keep them away from churches and freaky parents. 1 in 3 kids is abused. Injuries with firearms are 4 orders of magnitude more rare. 4 orders of magnitude is a LOT.

I have become very exhausted with the topic. I have come to a state where I have lost confidence in which anyone is really interested in working toward sensible solutions. This is becoming a bit of a mantra for me, but you can count my attitude is indeed sincere. I'm interested soley in knowing the solution to the question, and that's it. I feel quite alone in that. I've asked a dozen of honest probing questions that have gone unanswered, and I've made a lot of attempts to answer those posed of me.

So what your question comes down to is a straw man argument again. Do I believe that a single gunshot indicates a crime? No, and hell no. Any more than when my planer is going off, does any one have the right to think I'm stuffing children through it. Here the problem. Some think a firearm is a sensible tool. Some think, irrationally, it is a object exclusively and solely used for violence or something irresponsible. This perspective is a complete fallacy. Until we can agree that there might sctually be, somewhere, at some time, a sensible place for the use of the tool called a "firearm" in our culture this whole argument, again, is crushed by the zealots. Otherwise, senseless dogma wins yet again.