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quote:
Originally posted by DanielP
I am also under the impression that if I do not cross any barrier or fence or pass a No Trespassing sign or KAPU sign, I am not guilty of "Criminal Trespass".
Its actually 'Simple Trespass'.
Here's the actual wording:
ยง708-815 Simple trespass. (1) A person commits the offense of simple trespass if the person knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in or upon premises.
case notes refers you back to HRS 708-800.
A person who enters or remains upon unimproved and apparently unused land, which is neither fenced nor otherwise enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders, does so with license and privilege unless notice against trespass is personally communicated to the person by the owner of the land or some other authorized person, or unless notice is given by posting in a conspicuous manner
Of course, if you know the property is private and you trespass, you would be in violation of the Simple Trespass statute.
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quote:
Originally posted by Hazen
...I don't feel i encourage anyone in my personal interactions to go out to the lava who i would feel unfit for the experience...
then why did you ever post in an open forum such as PW anything at all? does 'personal interactions' somehow mean something different that 'for all the world to read'
what are you after man? someone to tell you you're cool. well you're cool! ok?
people DIE out there because of their foolishness! and it's fools like you that lead them to it!
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I bet that alot more folks have died surfing or SCUBA diving or snokling than have died walking to the flow. I have been and will go again. It was an experience that I will cherish forever. If you guys don't like it, well TS.
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Thanks Bob. So, in laymen's terms; If there is no knowledge, there is no trespass?
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daniel,
The shoreline is open to all in Hawaii except in the National Park (open for indiginous fishing and gathering) and in the declared disaster area that is Waikupanaha. The civil Defense and DNLR administer a sort of "marshal Law" in the area. Because of budget restraints, enforcement has been sporadic but fines and arrest are possible.
It is posted on the only road in that the whole area is closed to the public. Posting of individual properties is unneccesary and impractical because it's, well, a disaster area.
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Hazen,
Look, I'm not a confrontational person, and don't intend to prolong this discussion too much longer because it's most often fruitless to try and change someone's point of view.
I still challenge you to ask the Lava viewing staff what they think. You must be familier with them. Seven of the nine workers there represent three prominant Kalapana families. They were hired in no small part because of this. Some of them are members of the family whose land surrounds the county site. They have the unique perspective of cultural ties to the area and Civil defense experience and training. Ask them if they mind you going on their family land. Ask them if they feel disrespected by tresspassers.
They show the aloha spirit to thousands of people each week.
They've also put up with abuse from visitors, others who falsly claim local ties, and many non Hawaiians new to the area that feel a need to profit on the cultural and religeous beliefs of these hawaiians. It's difficult, but they show an uninhibited Aloha throughout this.
One Haoli guy named Josh even began "shaking down" visitors as they waited for the staff to arrive and the site to open. For Twenty five dollars, he promised a "secret" route to the lava that bypassed the county area. This was actually a fishing trail used by local Hawaiians and caused bad feelings among the locals. Once the visitors got past the fishing area and into the declared disaster area they were asked to leave which caused bad feelings among the visitors.
He even led a group of visitors into a potentially dangerous confrontation with a Hawaiian who happened to be hunting on family land. All for his own illegal and unethical profit. It's people like this that cause friction and ill will for everyone. It's people like this that you encourage and motivate.
You're going to do what you're going to do, but I can't silently condone it.
Good luck.
Stoneface
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Please excuse this - but isn't virtually all of this "land" now worthless anyway? No one can obviously build or live on it, etc. How can someone hunt on bare, recent lava flows? Are these people still paying property taxes on this land? How much could the county even claim the land is worth?
Since all new beach front land due to lava flows belongs to the state/county, how does anyone think they still own the land near the coast? Isn't it then OK to hike along that new land since it is public land?
Am I missing something here or are issues being made out of nothing?
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md7000 asks:
Quote:
"Please excuse this - but isn't virtually all of this "land" now worthless anyway? No one can obviously build or live on it, etc. How can someone hunt on bare, recent lava flows? Are these people still paying property taxes on this land? How much could the county even claim the land is worth?
Since all new beach front land due to lava flows belongs to the state/county, how does anyone think they still own the land near the coast? Isn't it then OK to hike along that new land since it is public land?
Am I missing something here or are issues being made out of nothing?
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md,
You ask some very good questions.
Many people are now building on the lava plain that was Kalapana Gardens in 1992. Most seem to be approacing it intelligently; building modular homes that could easily be moved if the lava returns. The barren lava offers spectacular ocean and pali views, relative seclusion, and an environment free of pests and weeds. The downside is the occasional intense vog episode, and lost visitors stumbling across their property.
People still pay taxes on their land, although they have the option of "quiting" it (disaster area and all. Most Royall Gardens residents have opted for this)
There are many Kipukas that harbor boar and other game for hunting.
There is probably at least a mile(?) of uncovered coastline just makai of the Kalapana Gardens lava plain.
The State does own the new acreage created by the lava, but again, it cannot be accessed without passing on private property. Even if it were accessable(helicopter?), the state restricts access because of the mandated disaster area. (It is posted)
As for the land being worthless; here lies the crux of the issue. This whole area, because of it's current lava flow, is very sacred and important to a lot of people. You may not believe in Pele, but she is very real to our host culture.
I'm a Pastafarian myself, but I think it's prudent to respect the beliefs of others; especially as a relative newcomer to their land.
Stoneface
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Greg,
thank-you. i entirely respect your opinion and i WILL make a point of going down and talking to some of the local employees. we do disagree on some things, not all.
behavior like that expressed by "josh" is beyond reprehensible in my opinion, i would be among the first in line to have him prosecuted to the full extent of the law. commodification or commercialization of this island is one of the things i rail against most fervently here. I have often thought of doing some kind of adventure tourism here, simply because i love the land here so much and would love to share it. I have never moved forward simply because i can't think of a respectful egalitarian way of doing it.
this fishing trail is undoubtably the same one i use and often see fisherman on. aloha is always expressed, it's hard to be out on the coast under a full moon and not feel aloha. I really respect the aloha these lava viewing staff express, it is no small challenge to maintain one's aloha with some of the tourist our island attracts. their ties to this island are birthright and earned, mine are nascent and heartfelt, but insubstantial in comparison. I look forward to talking to them and learning. I have felt no need to visit the viewing area, i live and seaview and can see the plume from here, i pass it at the highway/redroad junction near daily. i have always gravitated to the more intense experience of up close witness. perhaps i have been remiss.
clearly this josh guy has earned the ire of the locals, i heard of someone charging admission when the cops were gone. figured if i ever ran into him i'd do my best to run him off. most like him usually disappear pretty quick, a little awareness and the community picks up on things pretty quick down here. i've got lots of young local friends who love an outlet for their righteous feelings of big island pride, josh probably would have had blisters by the time he finished running to the airport.
i really appreciate the precise considerate way in which you have communicated your thoughts in spite of feelings you may have. we obviously both feel strongly on the details of this issue. i suspect that we have more in common than not.
i would strongly disagree that i encourage and motivate such people. just the opposite. josh was an unethical solicitor. i solicit nothing, i posted my observations of the conditions as a service to fellow punawebbers. a generally intelligent bunch. i can understand and alluded to the fact that you and da kine are upset that i posted such information in a public place. would you be upset if i posted a surf spot? hiking trails in the treacherous ka'u desert? trails along the hamakua coast that are unstable and run along steep cliffs? really how many bad things have been happening out there? i know of none. used to be rough parties out at teh end of the road all the time, fights bottles cars broken into. no more.
pPrhaps you are unaware of the number of people that are out there nightly? i can't remember the last time i went there and back without seeing at least 6 other people. perhaps you think me someone who encourages bad behavior, i only want people to be intelligent and informed when they do choose to do this, for there are many, many people who do, and will regardless. i might state that i have probably talked more people out of a late night journey than i have encouraged. my post may seem contrary to this, but my history is not. this is a dangerous activity that i pass on more than i participate in.
as to legality, once again, it is illegal to go out there. i sometimes exceed the speed limit and have sex with the lights on too. call me a rebel. ;P there isn't a mattress tag to be found in my house. some laws aren't really all that important. until you're up against a pissed officer. i guess i've never pissed off a cop before. except for my dad, that doesn't count. as to da kine's reaction, sorry to ruffle you cuz, i'm not trying to be cool. just open. if i was going for cool i'd post pictures of myself lighting cigarettes off the magma and doing motorcycle wheelies in my speedo.
i enjoy my life here, i am enthusiastic about it and feel very defensive when it feels like people are trying to clamp down on it, call me a fool, or extremely disrespectful and culturally insensitive. i'm not sending anyone off to their deaths here. i'm sure you understand. lets move away from that huh? drink a little kava and chillax? no enemies here. i apologize i've been writing quickly with little editing, trying to avoid bloating into manifestoes of defensiveness.
As a purely intellectual question i ask, how did you feel when the park service allowed visits from the park? i know there was a wrapper of control and regulation, but it was essentially the same activity in terms of danger? i'm not sure as to the details of the property traversed from the other side, but i assume that when the government appropriated the land that the flow had enveloped that the same land was then walked over. that route was much more treacherous and exhausting.
were you against that? i remeber reports of exhaustion and heartacttacks at times, all par for the course for a bunch of people walking out across hot black lava in beating sun for hours. bet disneyland has to contend with a lot of that too.
i regret the way the residents of kalapana were treated by the gov't, and still reel at the injustice of our legal system in settling that debt. the hawaiian homestead lots here in kaimu promised to victims are still largely unsettled, a gross wrong done the residents of kalapana. but do these folks wring their ands in frustration at strangers walking over their lost petunias? haven't heard a lot of that, lots of saddness over the loss of a magical village, family homes, and memories, but people have moved on.
perhaps with time, things will settle out for the best. i do respect this land and it's residents. even it's visitors. i will talk to the viewing lot employees and check in again with some of the family down at uncle roberts. i appreciate that you speak your mind about my opinions. much better to talk than just simmer at each other from across a void. makes for neighbors instead of combatants. i say thanks for the stimulation, i've been upset over this conversation, i never intended to create such heated debate. but it's also forced me to think deep and hard about things that matter to me. always a good thing.
greg i'll see you at market sometime, i usually go to the seaview market, but i occasionally make it up there. da kine whoever you are, i'm sure we'll pass many a time in the street, much aloha to you.
officially withdrawing my own drama, sorry and thanks,
hazen
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btw greg,
when you say pastafarian do you mean that as in the flying spaghetti monster, often to be confused with followers of the invisible pink unicorn, and even more rarely misquoted as cultists of the nefarious (!) Bob Dobbs? cause if that's right then we have at least one more thing in common. 
i for one welcome our spahgetti tentacled overlords... and their pet invisible pink unicorns. now i'll just go back to my newspaper, where'd i put that tobacco pipe and fedora?
hazen
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Hazen,
I think the situation at the National park was different. You could walk right up to the lava, but it was a lot further away from the parking area. This restricted access to some degree. I don't think the National Park had the same liability concerns that Hawaii County does either.
Our county has been successfully sued for hundreds of thousands of dollars for allowing people to do stupid things and I think this is what drives some of their policies. I could see someone breaking a leg or worse, then blaming the County for "allowing" it to happen.
Anyway, as a cost cutting move, the County has put the whole operation out for bid, and will be "privatising" the operation soon. I'm not sure how this is going to effect everything, but we'll see.
Who knows; the flow may stop, or head to pahoa.
Stoneface
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