Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Gays married legally elsewhere moving to Puna
#11
Deborah, as you know, yesterday was a milestone decision...I think that the questions you ask are still in the "how will it work out" stage...todays paper has a glimpse of the 104 page decision...Federal benefits are to those LEGALLY married...with most cases like this, you would look to past court cases, such as couple married legally in a state that allowed younger marriage age & bi-racial couples married legally & moving to states where this were not allowed...

And based on the news yesterday, even our governor is FINALLY re-looking at past decisions made in this state, and hopefully this will not be an issue for long...
Reply
#12
@HawaiiDeborah, retired military people do not live on base in any state. If you meant that one member of a same-sex couple is on active duty and is in base housing, I doubt that the other member of the couple is living in the same quarters as a spouse. Eligibility for on-base housing is set by federal law, not state law, and there is no federal same-sex marriage law.

The answer to the question about what would change if a same-sex married couple moved from Washington to Hawaii is that no one knows how that situation will play out. Eligibility for some federal benefits depends on where the couple was married while other federal benefits depend on where the couple is living. It will take some time for all of the effects of yesterday's Supreme Court decision to play out.
Reply
#13
The following is not legal advice. It is just crazy cat lady ramblings except I own no cats and I'm no lady.

I can't and won't provide an answer to your specific hypotheticals and I'm certain your friends know they will want to invest in legal counsel before making any moves, sudden or otherwise.

But I do have some general thoughts to share. First, as in any battle, it is important to distinguish the friendlies from the neutrals and the enemies. My surmise is that the Feds, under the current administration, will take an expansive view of these rights and benefits. That is reflected in the fact that the Administration did not oppose Plaintiff Edie Windsor's efforts to avoid the enormous estate tax she incurred because DOMA prevented Federal recognition of her marriage, which was legal in the State of New York. It is also reflected as recently as today on the website of the Office of Personnel Management, which states as follows:

"Today’s historic decision by the Supreme Court that the Defense of Marriage Act is unconstitutional is a much welcome development in the continuing quest to ensure equal treatment under the law to all Americans. For the federal government as an employer, it will impact benefits for our married gay and lesbian employees, annuitants, and their families."

“In the coming days, OPM will be working closely with the Department of Justice and other agencies to provide additional guidance for federal human resources professionals, benefits officers, and our employees and annuitants. While we recognize that our married gay and lesbian employees have already waited too long for this day, we ask for their continued patience as we take the steps necessary to review the Supreme Court’s decision and implement it. As soon as we have updates to share, they will be posted on our website.”


The Federal Government can be counted on to fully implement Windsor (the case that struck down one part of DOMA). It is constrained by the law but will, I think, err on the side of extending benefits (and imposing responsibilities, where those exist) so as to provide equality to legally married same sex couples as mandated by Windsor.

My further surmise is that these rights and benefits (and don't forget the responsibilities) will depend, primarily, on whether the couple is legally married under the laws of the state in which they were married.

Section 2 of the Defense of Marriage Act still stands and that section allows states to decline to recognize same sex marriages legally performed elsewhere. However, I would argue that the question is not whether Hawaii will recognize the marriage (it won't under current law) but whether the Federal Government will recognize the marriage. I believe the answer to that question in many, if not all, instances, is that the Federal Government will recognize a marriage that was legally performed under the laws of a given state. And once recognized, it will not withdraw that recognition simply because the parties relocated.

As the opinion notes there are over a thousand rights and responsibilities connected with marriage in Federal law (I pity the intern who did the counting, if ever anyone actually attempted to count these). It is possible that some of these benefits are residence-dependent. I don't know, and no one knows the answers, at this point. If there are a thousand laws, there will be a thousand questions. There are undoubtedly squadrons of attorneys in the District of Columbia examining these questions at the moment.

But the opinion in Windsor was quite broadly worded and said, in essence to the Federal Government, "Thou shalt not discriminate against same sex couples who are legally married".

And, I would argue, a marriage that is entered into lawfully in Washington State is not made illegal simply because the married couple moves to Hawaii. Hawaii, at present, doesn't have to recognize the marriage, but that does not render it illegal. It is important not to equate "unrecognized" (as in I can't see you) with "illegal". While in Hawaii, your friends could truthfully say "We are legally married but our marriage is not recognized by the State of Hawaii".

I can see a host of problems in the interstices between the states and the feds. And, if the couple was moving to a state with an antipathy toward same sex marriage (hostility expressed throughout that state's government), it would be very easy for a hostile state (e.g., Mississippi), or a person working for, say, the Veteran's Administration in such a state, to create problems that would work themselves through the courts or through administrative bodies.

But I know what my argument would be: State, we aren't looking for your recognition. We are asking the Feds to recognize a marriage that was legal in the state (or D.C.) where it was performed. And under the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution, a given state, generally speaking, does not get to tell the Federal Government who qualifies for Federal benefits. I am not suggesting this is an easy question and that there is no opposite argument. But that is what I would argue: Hawaii -- you can pretend we aren't married, but we are married under the laws of the State of California (or Washington, or Iowa....) and we are just asking the Federal Government to recognize us.

A problem could arise if a Federal law or regulation defers to a state with respect to the eligibility for a given benefit. There will be complications --enormous ones and not all of them can be foreseen at this time as none of these laws were drafted with Windsor in mind. An example of where Federal law refers to state law for definitional purposes would be Social Security law which says, in essence, that you are a spouse if you were considered married under the law of the state where the "insured worker" was domiciled when you filed for benefits. Of course, a provision such as the one just cited that shuts out legally married same sex couples based on the state in which they are domiciled when they apply for benefits, may run afoul of Windsor. But who wants to litigate? It is probably highly advisable when applying for certain Federal benefits, to be in a state that recognizes same sex marriage when you do so. It is probably advisable as well to consider not just immediate benefits but to anticipate future needs.

The above are my thoughts alone, but Lambda Legal is and has been an excellent resource for information on domestic partnerships and the marital rights and responsibilities as they pertain to same sex couples. They are not poised to answer all questions yet either. Link below. They could use a donation.

It is in our mutual best interest to work together to ensure that the spirit of aloha is reflected in the laws of the State of Hawaii. We should answer our own difficult questions by ensuring they don't need to be asked in the first place. [Smile]

http://www.lambdalegal.org/publications/after-doma
Reply
#14
Kelena,
EXCELLENT, well written and easily understood summation.
Thank you for that[Smile]
hawaiideborah
Reply
#15
I've seen it suggested that, for example, Social Security survivor benefits might have to be applied for in a state that recognizes the marriage, although they would continue everywhere. However, as Kelena said, there is wide latitude in the rules process, and I think this will be treated as the federal government recognizing all legally-conducted marriages regardless of where the people reside.

One area I hadn't previously considered is where federal law is not directly executed by a government agency, but only guarantees certain priveleges or rights to people. For example, the Family and Medical Leave Act allows people to take unpaid leave from jobs to take care of a spouse or family member. Still, there are quite a few definitions and rules under that (for example, airline flight crews have special rules), so they may be able to fit everyone in there too.
Reply
#16
Absolutely right, Midnight Rambler. I agree that there may be many laws that are domiciliary dependent in defining "spouse", essentially letting the state determine whether a party is a spouse or not, and Social Security survivor benefits is a good example. I edited my response to address that just prior to reading your comment. So, I don't think there is an omnibus answer, as yet, to the entitlement of all rights and privileges that the Federal government confers on a spouse. There is "cut the Gordian knot" argument that Windsor eliminates any Federal law or restriction that purports to give disparate treatment to legally married same sex couples, including a law that would deprive a legally married spouse of the same sex who is deprived of benefits because the insured spouse was domiciled in a state that does not recognize their marriage when the other spouse applied for benefits. But we don't know yet and there could be resistance on each and every one of these. I am quite certain Congress will not correct any problems as there is no political will to do so.

An unpleasant, but conceivable result would be for a party to be entitled to certain benefits, such as pension and health, but to be deprived of others, such as Social Security survivor benefits, because it is made dependent on the law of a state, such as Hawaii, that does not define a spouse as a party to a same sex marriage.

A more sensible result, of course, would be to deem Windsor to nullify any Federal law that purports to impose an unfair burden on same sex couples, including any Federal law that hands the fates of such couples to a state that refuses to recognize them, such as Hawaii.

Where Federal law occupies a given field, such as air transportation, I think the result is easier to guess. There can be no unequal Federal treatment of spouses to a same sex marriage.
Reply
#17
I'll admit to being a lawyer and half of a same sex married couple with a home in Puna. I think that Kelena got it pretty much right. The fact is we won't know until the various Federal agencies issues regulations or guidance. The President has already said he wants to take an expansive view. That said, the language of Justice Kennedy's opinion would fully justify limiting Federal benefits to those who live in states where the marriage is recognized.

I worked in the Hawaii House or Representatives Judiciary Committee last year. My impression is that the Hawaii legislature will recognize same sex marriage in the next session and convert existing Civil Unions to marriage. (Right now out of state same sex marriage are recognized as Civil Unions in Hawaii.)

Aloha,
Rob L
Aloha,
Rob L
Reply
#18
@Rob....I'm married in California and have resided in Puna for 4 yrs. I was told by a retired superior court judge that in order for me and my husband to get a civil union in Hawaii, we would first have to dissolve our Ca marriage. And in order to do that I'd have to be a resident of California for 6 months, which isn't going to happen. Hawaii needs to fix this.
Reply
#19
quote:
Originally posted by Kelena

Where Federal law occupies a given field, such as air transportation, I think the result is easier to guess. There can be no unequal Federal treatment of spouses to a same sex marriage.


Latest interpretation: Federal benefits will be extended (or not) depending on whether the specific Federal agency recognizes "State of celebration" (married in a same-sex-marriage State) or "State of domicile" (residence in a same-sex-marriage State).

Just when you thought they couldn't make it more confusing... or expensive... or time-consuming...

Reply
#20
Another good reason to never ever get married - grin

Im always amazed how we do things ass backwards in the puritan US

Most countries that understand church and state require two ceremonies - one for the eyes of god in a church the other for the eyes of the feds at city hall.... churches (weddings) have no business pre - qualifying applicants for federal shared benefits and the application of laws to a given class of folks (married couples) - grin

City hall for tax and survivor rules / laws and other freebies

Church takes care of the soul

render unto Caesar and all that rot........ is a good guideline here


So happy I'm "over it" grin
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)